[PLUG-TALK] Re: [PLUG] Sounds good to me ;)

Jeme A Brelin jeme at brelin.net
Sat Jun 22 02:42:11 UTC 2002


On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Russ Johnson wrote:
> On the other hand, I hope that those folks that can, plan in such a
> way as to hopefully never become a burden on anyone else. I'm working
> toward that goal right now.

But don't you see that your obsession with this goal of self-sufficience
(which isn't ever truly going to happen) is preventing you from helping
other people right now?

> I agree that helping out one another is a worthy cause, but I don't
> want to count on anyone else to provide for me. That too would be
> considered a form of greed.

Do you recall the definition of the word "greed"?  It has nothing to do
with other people.  Greed is simply the desire for more than you need.  
The source of the things that meet your needs does not come into it.

How is it greedy to count on other people for your needs?  You count on
your boss for the paycheck that you need to survive (not all of it, but
you catch my drift).  Is that greed?  You count on your loved-ones for
support.  Is that greed?  You count on other people for courtesy and
respect.  Is that greed?  I think we just had a whole long discussion
where we agreed that courtesy and respect SHOULD be expected and that is
not an unreasonable need to have met.  Yet, it is something for which you
count on other people.

> > > Another thing. Wages are continually going up for the most part.
> > 
> > Huh?  Real wages are DOWN by more than thirty percent over the past thirty
> > years.  I'd like you to prove that wages are continually going up.
> 
> I'm talking dollar figure here. If I take a job that pays $75k per
> year, and most folks in that field earn $65k per year, most likely,
> those folks earning $65k per year will reach $75k per year in a year
> or two.
> Will it spend the same? No. 
> Is my dollar worth less than my dads dollar at this point in his
> career? Yes.
> Am I making more now than I was 5 years ago? Most definately.

I don't understand your point here.  Are you generalizing to the
population based on your own experience?  And even if you were right, what
difference does it make to the topic at hand?

> Am I making more disposable income? Most definately.

You're in a shrinking minority.

> > The only sector of the "workforce" that is experiencing continually
> > growing compensation is the top 3%.  Everyone else is going down.
> 
> This also assumes no advancement for the workforce. I'd be REAL upset
> if I didn't get a raise every year, get a promotion sometimes, and
> I've changed jobs a couple of times in the last 10 years, with a large
> increase in salary. I've also increased my skillset, which makes me
> more marketable.

Are you doing what you love?  Do you feel like your work makes the world a
better place?  Do you feel like your life is integrated?

This is all anecdotal and your responses put us no closer to an
understanding of the ideological differences and relative value of a
society that encourages greed and selfishness and a society that promotes
sharing and cooperation.

> AND, all of my knowledge is self taught. I don't have a college
> degree. I have work experience, and I read a lot.

That's nice.  You're very smart.  Remind me to embroider you a badge.

> My point is that I have kept ahead of inflation very well.

Again, you're in the minority.

> > The minimum wage is half what it was during the Nixon administration
> > (adjusting for inflation).
> 
> Everyone holds up minimum wage as a yardstick. Anyone who works for
> minimum wage for more than 2 years isn't trying to get ahead.

Oh?  Do you have any idea how employment breaks down in this country?

Consider also that some people ENJOY the work they do.  There are people
who really like being a line cook or a waitperson or a hotel clerk or even
a light-industrial assembly worker.  I know people that are quite
well-suited to those jobs and really enjoy doing them every day.  They are
providing a valuable and necessary service to you and me.  Must they take
less than a living wage?

Your idea of "getting ahead" is making more money for yourself.  Other
people do not share that particular desire as a strong enough motivator to
leave a career they enjoy and that integrates into the rest of their life.  
Should a comfortable standard of living be denied these people because
they are not motivated by the desire to accumulate wealth?

> Minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be jobs you stick with until you
> retire.  They are jobs that you use to get experience and move on.

Tell that to the people who love everything about their job except the
money.  Tell that to the people who work in light-industrial labor.  Tell
that to people who sew shirts in a factory.  There is no "advancement"
from these trades.  These people are doing the work that you rely on every
day.

> Anyone expecting to live off minimum wage is lieing to themselves.

That's exactly the point.  You can't live on it.  You should be able to do
so.

> At the same time, in our system (right, wrong or indifferent) the
> folks you call "fatcat investors" take risks.

Is it a risk if you have a guarantee that your needs will be met for the
rest of your life?

I hardly call gambling with extraneous accumulated wealth a "risk".

> They finance small businesses, hoping those businesses become
> profitable.

Hoping to get more out than they put in.  Hoping that the labor of others
will improve the value of their capital contribution so that they can
become wealthy while the laborers continue to live as dependents with
their barely livable wage.

> Then they make their money back, with compensation.

This is called "usury".  I don't know if you're one of those people that
take the teachings of Christ as gospel or merely as some wise words out of
history or mythology, but I recommend you read the story of the
money-lenders in the temple.  If you think the stories of Christ are just
drivel and have no application to real life, I can probably rustle up some
other morality lessons focussing on this particular sin.

> I work for just such a small business, and I'll tell you right now, I
> wouldn't be working here if it wasn't for those "fatcat investors".

No kidding?  So you wouldn't be working there if it weren't for the
paycheck?  That doesn't sound pleasant at all.  Perhaps you should look
into re-integrating your life.

> There are 120 living wage jobs here because some people saw that it
> was a good idea, and decided to finance it.

But what's a "good idea"?  They saw that they could make even more money
on it.  They used their greed to determine what should be done with their
excess.

What do these people do all day, anyway?  Are they out meeting the needs
of others or are they administering accumulated wealth for their own
greed or are they living lives of gluttony and sloth?

> > Giving it to someone who is experiencing a "rainy day" would also be a
> > good use and more likely to actually be useful than preparing for a day
> > that may not come.  You should be able to rely on the people around you
> > during your hour of need.
> 
> But I don't want to have to. That's my point. If I have the ability to
> provide for myself, and put away something for when I won't be able to
> do so, then I will. Call it pride, but I don't want anyone else to
> take care of me.

Pride and greed.  Two out of seven and we haven't even scratched the
surface.  We haven't even addressed inherent inequities in the system that
REQUIRE the people who do the important work to be impoverished and
prevent the accumulation of wealth in the masses.

J.
-- 
   -----------------
     Jeme A Brelin
    jeme at brelin.net
   -----------------
 [cc] counter-copyright
 http://www.openlaw.org





More information about the PLUG-talk mailing list