[PLUG-TALK] Fair Use, etc.

Jeme A Brelin jeme at brelin.net
Sat Mar 30 09:31:05 UTC 2002


On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Craighead, Scot D wrote:
> >No government is required to provide anything.  Our government
> >supposedly operates from a mandate of the people and the people have
> >required,again,supposedly, a police and military.
> 
> The constitution mandates that the federal government defens the
> country.

It's a mistake to believe that the Constitution mandates anything.

The Constitution describes what can be done, if anything is done.

Congress has the power to provide for the common defense, but Congress is
not obligated to do so.

> >I was simply rebutting his statement that the "major flaw" of socialism
> >was that it "requires force to deploy".  Capitalism not only requires
> >force to deploy, but requires ongoing force to maintain.
> 
> I can't see what you mean by that.  Police departments inforce laws to
> try to keep people from committing crimes against each other.  In
> utopia will be no longer commit crime?

No, it was a response to his argument that socialism "requires force to
deploy".  The fact is that all economic systems require force,
particularly capitalism.

> >There has never been an industrialized Marxist state.  The preaching of
> >Marxist dogma by leaders doesn't make a state Marxist.
> 
> You have missed entirely the point I was trying to make.  There is
> theory and there is practice.  They don't work out the same.

No, you missed the point.  There has been no practicing socialist,
industralized state.

The closest we have is a few highly mixed economies, particularly in
Europe.  And they're quite successful at both advancing the good of
mankind and maintaining a high standard of living.  Now, if they could do
it without enslaving the third world, that'd be a better trick.

> Marx's theory has been tried a bunch of times all have ended in total
> failure.  His pretty words sound good, but don't work in practice.

Marx didn't have a theory to be tried.  Marx had a theory about the
evolution of society based on his observations of industralization and his
knowledge of economic history.  I think it's pretty easy to look around
and say, "Yeah, Marx was pretty close... I can see us moving toward more
worker-controlled systems and, as progress provides for abundance,
capitalists fall away."  I think the recording industry is showing the
truth of Marx's theory right now.  The capitalists are fighting hard to
control something that has become the domain of the people.

> I don't advocate "pure" capitalism.  Why must you take everything to
> it's extreme? The world doesn't work that way.  Nothing is taken to
> extremes.  I believe that the government should leave business alone
> to operate most of the time but needs step in and act as a check and
> balance every now and then when things get too extreme.

OK.  So?

If we're going to strike at "pure" socialism, we can take a few swings at
"pure" capitalism while we're at it, no?  Wouldn't that be a fair debate?

There are as many problems with socialism as capitalism.

The difference, in my mind, is that capitalism rewards the worst parts of
human nature and offers nothing for a person acting upon his better
nature, whereas socialism can be abused by those who act upon their worst
nature.

> That is why I am for breaking up M$.  Jeff may disagree with me.  
> Most of the time the consumer or the employees will act to keep
> companies from going too far.

I'd like you to show me examples of that happening in the past twenty
years.

> I have watched the standard of living improve for the last 20 years for the
> "poor".

The numbers disagree with you.

> >Median income is FALLING in real dollars.
> 
> I repeat what I just said.  I don't know how old you are, but I was a
> kid during the 70's and things were very bad then.  Since I have been
> an adult there has never been a time when I couldn't get some job.  
> Maybe not the job I want, but enough to servive.  In the 70's, able
> bodied people really couldn't get jobs.  We have toys now that were
> inconceivable then.

Toys and longer work hours for less money.  That's 20 years of capitalist
"progress".

J.
-- 
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     Jeme A Brelin
    jeme at brelin.net
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