[PLUG-TALK] Chirac's shocker... Iraq.

[alex]

On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 05:26, Jeme A Brelin wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, alex wrote:
> > On Tue, 2003-12-23 at 01:31, Russell Senior wrote:
> > > >>>>> "alex" == alex  <alexlinux at qwest.net> writes:
> > > Russell Senior wrote:
> > > Seems to me that's a pretty arbitrary line to draw.  If society wants
> > > its members to be productive and contribute back, investment is
> > > required.  Unless you are ready for the Zyklon-B solution, you'd better
> > > take a more serious look at what helps and what doesn't.
> >
> > What is arbitrary about being proud that I have never used welfare, food
> > stamps, etc?
> 
> It's an arbitrary line between one kind of public assistance and another.
> You've taken the public education, used the public library, ridden the
> public roads, and so on, but you have some pride that you haven't taken
> the public food.  One kind of assistance is the same as any other.

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I work and I pay taxes as my
parents did to pay for the public education that everyone enjoys,
including those that don't pay taxes. The same thing applies to the
library and the public roads via more property taxes and gas taxes.
Those that pay taxes enable all to use those facilities. Maybe we should
just embrace your utopian idea of the world and give everyone everything
they need for free. I think that would take care of all the pain and
suffering, don't you?
> 
> > As far as investment, why should I invest in a drug using woman or man
> > that clearly doesn't want to change and is living on the street or in a
> > run down apartment sucking up yours and mine tax money? Why should I
> > invest in the welfare mother who keeps popping out those babies so she
> > can drain even more resources that someone who is trying to improve
> > their life could use? Or what about the dope peddler on the corner that
> > makes $120K a year but has no visible means of support and buys his food
> > with food stamps so his cash can be used to get more drugs? And what
> > about the couple that is dressed in clothes that I'll never be able to
> > afford, unless I win the lottery, driving a BMW and paying for groceries
> > with food stamps?
> 
> To answer your question(s), you should support them because you can't tell
> them from people who would starve otherwise.

Hence the restrictions.
> 
> > Should I support all of those people? Or should we put stipulations on
> > how long you can stay in the system and what you need to do to even stay
> > on it for the maximum amount of time?
> 
> Those kinds of restrictions end up hurting the people that need assistance
> much more than they hurt those few that might abuse the system.

What would be the harm of putting a time limit on how long one can
remain on public assistance? Make them better themselves and eliminate
their burden on the rest of us.
> 
> > I'm sorry, but, you need to invest in yourself first before anyone else
> > does. That's what school is for and getting that first job is for. Learn
> > to have pride in yourself and respect yourself and keep plugging away
> > until you get to where you want to be. (Wow, that went a bit long.
> > Sorry.)
> 
> I believe that's what most everyone in the world is doing.

Most are. It's those that live their entire life off the public that I'm
concerned about.
> 
> > No, I do not sanction gassing of anyone but I firmly believe that you
> > should make your own way under your own steam.
> 
> Well, slowly freezing and starving is much more painful and cruel than the
> gas.  If you're going to support the killing of the poor, you may as well
> be humane about it.

I don't support the killing of the poor in any manner. I support giving
them the tools and the knowledge to improve themselves while they are on
assistance so they can then get off the dole. Supporting generation
after generation is not the answer.
> 
> > It is a matter of pride to me that I can say that. I would rather work
> > for a living doing anything(or almost anything, no gassing people or
> > killing them in any way types of jobs please) before I would go on
> > welfare or beg for money on the street. Sorry, I have some pride and
> > respect for myself.
> 
> Pride is the root of sin.  I'm not a religious person, but it's pretty
> clear to see how pride is just vanity and arrogance.

So you've never shown pride in anything that you have done then? Must be
nice to be Godlike!
> 
> And your belief that most people don't also want to be productive and do
> work shows how that pride has made you believe you are somehow different
> and better than others.
> 
> J.

Boy, do you have that wrong. I know that I'm not better or different
than others. I'm just an average person trying to get through to the
next day. There's nothing special about that. I also know that most
people are like that.
-- 
alex <alexlinux at qwest.net>