[PLUG-TALK] reliance on technology (was: Redhat changes, fedora)

Russ Johnson russj at dimstar.net
Fri Nov 7 21:24:54 UTC 2003


* Jeme A Brelin <jeme at brelin.net> [2003-11-07 11:44]:
> > Well, I do have opinions that many people that are young, are also
> > idealistic and in some ways naive about how the world works. I don't
> > believe that makes me bigoted.
> 
> It makes you bigoted when you assume that someone is too foolish to
> understand something and do not simply because they are young.  You
> assumed without any knowledge other than my relative age.

Add to that knowledge of your relative age that fact that I've watched
you spout your beliefs for over a year here. In that time, I've gathered
an informed opinion about you. 

If I was in error, and you do agree with me on that point, I appologize.
If not, well, we'll see in a few years if you change your mind or not.
Shit happens, and people change. 

> > The opinions I have witnessed from you lead me to believe that in some
> > ways, you have beliefs that don't mesh well with the way the world
> > works. Maybe the world should be different, and maybe your world is
> > different than mine, but in my world, a lot of the things that I see you
> > profess just don't work for me.
> 
> All of this is true.  I believe different things than you believe.  I
> believe the world does not always mesh well with my beliefs.  I also
> believe the world should be different.  It's necessarily true that your
> world is different from mine and the things I "profess" (mostly peace,
> love, and understanding) don't work for you.

Well, peace, love and understanding work for me too. However, I'm a big
believer in karma too. At least in the sense that what goes around,
comes around.

> I don't see how any of this is relates to our relative ages.

It's a proven fact that younger folks are more idealistic than their
older counterparts. That's also why most young folks should listen to
their elders. Experience is a great teacher. Sometimes, it's best to
learn from others experiences. That's also one of the reasons why we 
hang out on the plug mailing list. 

> > > First, honor should be given equally to all human beings.
> >
> > However, those who have done, should be listened to.
> 
> However?  What do you mean by "however"?  You agree, but would like to
> provide an exception or counterpoint?
> 
> You should listen to everyone you possibly can.

Until one proves himself a fool. It's like many of those "protesters"
downtown. I listen to what they say, and then, when I disagree with
them, I'm the enemy. Last time I checked, I'm allowed to feel
differently from someone else. That's what makes this country what it
is. 

> > It took me until I was almost 30 to realize that my dad was a lot wiser
> > than I believed him to be. There are many things that my dad is
> > downright ignorant about. But those things that he does know, are well
> > worth listening to.
> 
> Well, if you'd respected all people and listened to them regardless of
> your opinions, you might have realized that sooner.

That's something that comes with age. Maybe I wasn't taught the correct
way. I do know that most of the time, my 18 year old thinks I'm pretty
smart. I also know that sometimes, he thinks his dad is a doddering old
fool. I'm hoping he doesn't go through the stage I did where I thought
my dad was a complete idiot. 

> > Honor and respect are earned. Earning them takes time.
> 
> The concepts of "earning" and "deserving" is stupid and harmful.

You are looking at it backwards. I believe everyone must earn respect.
At the same time, they start out with positive respect on the
respect-o-meter. As I interact with them, the respect level can go up,
down, or remain the same. 

I would agree with you, if everyone started out with no respect or
negative respect. But that's not how it's supposed to work. 

> We're just a bunch of people doing stuff.  Everyone does what they can and
> the more we work together, the more we can attain the higher goals of
> health, happiness, and knowledge.

There are many politions that I have very little respect for. I figure
they don't respect me either, even though they don't even know my name. 

> > When I was in the Air Force, we had a saying for officers that were
> > complete idiots. We had to respect the rank. However, we were not
> > required to respect the person in the uniform.
> 
> Honestly, I just think that's dumb.  You're just looking for was to
> pretend you have individuality in the machine of militarism.

Without having been in the military, you have zero frame of reference,
and can't possibly know what you are talking about. 

> The effect is the same (you do whatever shit you're told to do -- hence
> this person's will is carried out), but your own will is suppressed and
> your frustration and dissatisfaction increases.

And this goes to prove my last statement. You obviously have zero clue
as to how the Air Force works. 

> It's all very ugly.

How would you know?

> > > Second, mere survival no longer denotes any kind of greater wisdom or
> > > maturity.  Modern civilization allows even the most foolish and lazy
> > > to become "elders".
> >
> > It should.
> 
> No, it shouldn't.  If mere survival required more of each individual,
> those who were not capable of this raised standard would suffer.
> Rightfully, modern civilization has worked to decrease suffering.  In this
> one respect, we have succeeded.

I don't necessarily think that's a success. More people living on the
planet isn't necessarily a good thing. I believe you've said that
yourself. Lower the bar, you get more people. If those people are a
drain on the system, rather than producers, then we all suffer more. 

> > > Lastly, you're not that much older or more experienced than I am... I
> > > just look good for my age.
> > As do I. How old are you?
> 
> Younger than you.  I believe you wrote earlier that you are not yet 40 (no
> comment on whether or not you look it).  I'm not yet 40, either.  So you
> can't be that much older than I am.

I'm told that I look too young to have a 17 year old daughter, and I
also have an 18 year old son. One woman even told me I look 27. I about
asked her to marry me... (kidding!)

And just to remove all doubt, I will be 40, next month.

> > > I personally believe pragmatism is very destructive.  You can never
> > > get from bad to good with compromises.
> >
> > Never is a horrible word. Nothing is absolute.
> 
> Don't be more foolish, Russell.  A hyperbolic curve will never touch it's
> asymptotic line.  1/x will never equal 0, no matter how big you make x.

What if you make x = 0?

> There are absolutes and some things will never happen.  Compromising with
> bad might bring you arbitrarily close to good, but you will never reach
> it.

Good and bad are scales. That's why we have crimes that are
misdimeanors, and crimes that are felonies. Worse crimes are "more bad"
than lessor crimes. 

> And that's exactly where we differ.  YOU are the one setting yourself up
> for failure because you have defined success too narrowly.

So, you are arguing for failure based goals, instead of success based
goals. How does that work with say, saving for retirement? Regardless of
whether you think retirement is a valid goal or not. 

> Your goal, as you state it here, is "to succeed" where "to succeed" is
> defined by some set of explicit (however arbitrary) requirements.  That
> means that no matter what you do, if you don't do these few things, you've
> failed.

It works for lots of people. If they continually fail, they need to
re-think their goals. 

> I propose that you wouldn't have your depression issues if you redefined
> "to succeed" to be "not to fail" and then put narrow requirements on
> failing.  That way, no matter what you do, so long as you don't do those
> few things, you've succeeded.

I don't see how this would work. Please elucidate.

> > > Hate to break this to you, but Yoda is a fucking muppet.
> > So? So's Big Bird, but he teaches many pre-schoolers the alphabet.
> 
> We're not pre-schoolers.  I don't think we have anything to learn from
> muppets.

So you don't respect the man behind the muppet? There are lots of things
we can learn from muppets. 

> > And a bike with training wheels does have two wheels. It also has props
> > that have wheels on them so they don't scrape.
> 
> That's absurd.  That's like saying an automobile is a motorcycle because a
> motorcycle is a motorized vehicle with two wheels and an automobile is a
> motorized vehicle with two wheels that also has two other wheels so that
> the sides of the vehicle don't scrape.
> 
> A bicycle is a two-wheeled velocipede; not a velocipede with AT LEAST two
> wheels, exactly two wheels.

See, I'm distinguishing between something that is required for the bike
to function, and something that affixed to the bike to train the rider. 

A motorcycle doesn't cease to be a motorcycle if you affix a side car to
it. A car does not cease to be a car when you attack a roof-top carrier
to trailer to it. 

Training wheels are accesories for a bicycle. 

> Putting a camper on a pickup makes it an RV.  Just ask at a campsite.

It's still a pickup too. It also does not have to have a camper to be an
RV. Throw a sleeping bag in back. 

> > > Yes, they do.  They can't do it, but they know HOW to do it.
> >
> > That's contradictory. If you know how to do something, then you CAN do
> > it.
> 
> No, that's not true.  Being able to do something means that it's possible
> with the given resources.  You can have all the knowledge and none of the
> resources and that would mean you know how, but can't.
> 
> And that's only one reason why that's not a contradiction.  Think about
> these things before you make broad statements.

I would state that your kids would not know HOW to dismantle a bicycle. 

> > "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of his children a drum." - Chinese
> > Proverb
> 
> That's some hateful shit, sir.  You should maybe think about whether you
> want the world to be nice or tense and frustrating.  The Golden Rule might
> help here, too.

My parents threatened me with something similar. They said they would buy the
noisy toys and send them home with my kids. 

Of course, some people need to learn when things are jokes. 

-- 
Russ Johnson
Dimension 7/Stargate Online
http://www.dimstar.net

Top post? http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

Random thought #2 (Collect all 22)
"If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of his children a drum." - Chinese Proverb




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