[PLUG-TALK] Michael, On the subject of God.

Russ Johnson russj at dimstar.net
Fri Nov 14 21:25:24 UTC 2003


* Jeme A Brelin <jeme at brelin.net> [2003-11-14 12:31]:
> > > Just because one outcome out of a set of outcomes occurs, that does
> > > not prove there was only one possible outcome.
> >
> > Thank you for proving my point.
> 
> He didn't prove your point, Russ.  You're just too stuck in natural
> thought to comprehend the supernatural jive he's laying down.

This IS my point. There's no such thing as "supernatural". What he's
laying down is just that... jive. Definition, 2b at m-w.com.

> Is it logical?  No.  But it doesn't have to be because it's about a
> magical being who lives above the clouds.

So now, you defend a mythical beings, but discount muppets. At least the
muppets can be proven to exist.

:p

> > Let's say god has the ability to see all time, as you claim.
> > He sees a decision looming for you, and the decision you will make.
> > Now, if he sees that decision, then how could you make a different
> > decision when you get to that point in time?
> 
> ...because God, in this line of argument, is outside time.  The decision
> is not "looming" because the timeline is only linear and unidirectional to
> us limited natural beings.

You miss the point. Or you are ignoring it.

If God knows what I'm going to do 4 years from now, regardless of what
*I* know, then the decision is already made, and *I* can't change that.
I do not have free will to make a different decision, because God knows
what I'm going to do. At that point, free will becomes an illusion.

> Does the act of filming a person and watching it later remove the free
> will of the filmed at the time of filming?  That's a mediocre analogy
> because we're stuck in a linear, forever-moving, unidirectional timeline,
> but it does go a little bit to showing the idea here.

Apples and oranges. If god is timeless, then we have no freewill. If god
doesn't know what we're going to do, then he's not omnipotent.

Of course, you have to believe in god first.

As far as the film analogy goes, at the time of the filming, the actors
have free will. Watching the film 20 times won't change what's on it. If
god knows what's going to happen, then we are living in an already post
production movie where he knows the outcome. I would think he has a
rather boring existance, since he knows what's going to happen. 

> Assume there is a God who is outside time.
> 
> There is no "before" and "after" to such a thing.  God would now know
> things before you did them,

And if it does know these things, then my decision is set in stone, and
I lose free will. 

> It would just know things.  God doesn't do
> this, then that.  God would not know things before you because God is not
> in your temporal stream.  That God is always in the present tense and
> there is no future or past.

That's not logical, and doesn't make sense. Now you are saying gods
knows, but he doesn't know.

> I'm not going to argue the point because it's stupid.  The point of this
> email is just to correct Russ' messed-up reasoning in Michael's imaginary
> world.

Messed up in your mind. It's quite logical.

> You're wrong on both counts, Russ.

I don't believe so. 

> First, if you think you know what
> choice you're going to make, that knowledge and attitude will influence
> the actual choices you make.

Yes, if *I* know what choice I'm going to make. That wasn't the
question. The question was if some omnipotent being knows what choice
I'm going to make. 

Michaels assertion is that this omnipotent being knows what answer I
will give before the question is asked. My response is that given those
facts, I no longer have free will, because my "choice" is already known
to this omnipotent being. 

> Second, some being's knowledge of your
> choices only calls into question your free will (I don't think any logic
> could show that your free will is actually removed) IF that knowledge is
> acquired before the decision point.  To say that God (assuming above
> definitions of such a thing) knows what you WILL decide is to imply that
> God knows it before you act which further implies that God is temporal.

That is exactly what "all knowing" means. 

It's perfectly logical. If god knows that I will make choice "C" on a
test I take in some point in the future, then I have no free will to
choose "B" on that test. I have the illusion of free will, because I
can't prove this non-linear, non-corporeal being exists. 

-- 
Russ Johnson
Dimension 7/Stargate Online
http://www.dimstar.net

Top post? http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

Random thought #5 (Collect all 22)
"Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right." - Mohandas K. Ghandi




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