[PLUG-TALK] Michael, On the subject of God.

Russ Johnson russj at dimstar.net
Fri Nov 14 23:19:47 UTC 2003


* Jeme A Brelin <jeme at brelin.net> [2003-11-14 14:16]:
> You know, of course, that I'm not defending it.  I'm just writing that his
> idea of God doesn't fit your idea of time.

"Time" is a concept that we have "proven" exists. We have measurment of
it.

God has never been proven to exist. Granted, I don't know of anything
that says he doesn't exist either.

> > > ...because God, in this line of argument, is outside time.  The
> > > decision is not "looming" because the timeline is only linear and
> > > unidirectional to us limited natural beings.
> >
> > You miss the point. Or you are ignoring it.
> 
> Or you're misunderstanding me.  Or I wasn't clear.  Or...or...or.  There
> are many more possibilities than come immediately to your narrow mind.
> Hee.

Do you really want to live in a world where people put each other down?

> > If God knows what I'm going to do 4 years from now, regardless of what
> > *I* know, then the decision is already made, and *I* can't change that.
> 
> No, because God doesn't know it BEFORE you do it; God knows BECAUSE you do
> it.  To say that it happens before is to misunderstand the nature of God.

But then he's not omnipotent! 

> > I do not have free will to make a different decision, because God knows
> > what I'm going to do.
> 
> God doesn't know what you're GOING to do because "going to" doesn't mean
> anything to that kind of God.

A god such as you describe would also understand linear existance, or he
wouldn't be able to understand our lives. 

In that context, he DOES know what "going to" means, and hense, if he
knows what I'm going to do, I can't decide differently. 

> > At that point, free will becomes an illusion.
> 
> No, at the point of dismissing the supernatural, free will becomes an
> illusion.

Please expand on that. How is free will an illusion without the
existance of the supernatural?

> > If god is timeless, then we have no freewill.
> 
> This does not follow.

It's very logical. 

A> God, as defined by christianity, knows everything that has happend, or
will hapen.

B> A human being, can decide to have chicken for dinner, or pork chops.

If A is true, then god already knows what that human is having for
dinner prior to the human deciding. So B can't be true.

If B is true, then god doesn't know everything that will happen. 

Both A and B can't be true at the same time. They are mutually
exclusive. 

"B" allows free will. 

"A" excludes free will.

> See above regarding your use of "going to".  If God is outside time, you
> cannot apply temporal restrictions.

I'm not applying a temporal restriction on "god". However, I have to
apply one on human existance. 

> > As far as the film analogy goes, at the time of the filming, the actors
> > have free will. Watching the film 20 times won't change what's on it. If
> > god knows what's going to happen, then we are living in an already post
> > production movie where he knows the outcome.
> 
> No, we are living at the time of filming and God is living at the time of
> post-production.  There is no reason to conflate the two timelines.

Then you've just ruled out free will. 

> > > Assume there is a God who is outside time.
> > > There is no "before" and "after" to such a thing.  God would now know
> > > things before you did them,
> >
> > And if it does know these things, then my decision is set in stone, and
> > I lose free will.
> 
> Your argument hinges on the idea that God knows these things BEFORE you do
> them.  That is simply not the case.

An all knowing god, as the bible and christianity claim, would know all
that has happened, and will happen. Consequently, he will know what will
happen, BEFORE it happens on our time line.

> And you can't lose what you don't have.

So you don't think you have free will either?

> No, I'm not.  Open up a bit.  If God is outside time, then God doesn't
> know BEFORE, but simply knows.  To say that God KNEW is meaningless
> because such a being is always in the present tense.

And if god knows, I don't have a choice in the matter.

You are completely ignoring the fact that christianity claims god knows
all and sees all. 

> > My response is that given those facts, I no longer have free will,
> > because my "choice" is already known to this omnipotent being.
> 
> Not "already".  Get time out of it and see if it makes any sense.

You can't take time out of it, because one being in the equation is
governed by time.

> And it's not true that you "no longer" have free will because you didn't
> have it in the first place.

If you believe the crap the church trowels out.

-- 
Russ Johnson
Dimension 7/Stargate Online
http://www.dimstar.net

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Random thought #12 (Collect all 22)
"Attitudes are capable of making the same experience either pleasant or painful." - John Powell




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