[PLUG-TALK] Michael, On the subject of God.

Jeme A Brelin jeme at brelin.net
Fri Nov 14 23:57:07 UTC 2003


On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Russ Johnson wrote:
> * Jeme A Brelin <jeme at brelin.net> [2003-11-14 14:16]:
> > You know, of course, that I'm not defending it.  I'm just writing that his
> > idea of God doesn't fit your idea of time.
>
> "Time" is a concept that we have "proven" exists. We have measurment of
> it.
>
> God has never been proven to exist. Granted, I don't know of anything
> that says he doesn't exist either.

We're supposing the existence of a being that we're calling "God" that
exists outside of time.  Yes, time exists to us, but not to this being --
by definition.

> > Or you're misunderstanding me.  Or I wasn't clear.  Or...or...or.
> > There are many more possibilities than come immediately to your narrow
> > mind. Hee.
>
> Do you really want to live in a world where people put each other down?

Hopefully that was also intended as a joke.

> > No, because God doesn't know it BEFORE you do it; God knows BECAUSE
> > you do it.  To say that it happens before is to misunderstand the
> > nature of God.
>
> But then he's not omnipotent!

Why not?

> > God doesn't know what you're GOING to do because "going to" doesn't
> > mean anything to that kind of God.
>
> A god such as you describe would also understand linear existance, or he
> wouldn't be able to understand our lives.

Understanding our lives is not a prerequisite.

> In that context, he DOES know what "going to" means, and hense, if he
> knows what I'm going to do, I can't decide differently.

(Where did you get this gender talk?)

God knows what it means, but it has no meaning to God.

I know what PMS means, but it is only something I have to deal with in
other people.  This is also a thin analogy, but hopefully instructive.


> > No, at the point of dismissing the supernatural, free will becomes an
> > illusion.
>
> Please expand on that. How is free will an illusion without the
> existance of the supernatural?

I believe I explained that in detail at the end of an email earlier today.
Read again.

> > > If god is timeless, then we have no freewill.
> > This does not follow.
>
> It's very logical.
>
> A> God, as defined by christianity, knows everything that has happend,
> or will hapen.

Let's accept that as a partial definition.

> B> A human being, can decide to have chicken for dinner, or pork chops.

Let's set this as a supposition.  It's not TRUE in the "free will" sense,
but it's true in a practical sense.  That is to say, we can't know
beforehand and it appears as though we choose, so we say that we do choose
and ignore the facts.

> If A is true, then god already knows what that human is having for
> dinner prior to the human deciding. So B can't be true.

There's your mistake.  God doesn't know PRIOR TO.  That is to put God in
the linear timestream of mere mortals.  God is not the I AM, WAS, and WILL
BE.  Just the I AM (to take the Judeo-Christian mythos).

You're inserting God into time.  God is outside time.

> If B is true, then god doesn't know everything that will happen.

Well, B is not true, but that's not part of this debate.  Let's leave that
out for the purpose of this.

> Both A and B can't be true at the same time. They are mutually
> exclusive.

Yes, they can.

> "B" allows free will.

Reality excludes free will as you describe it.

> "A" excludes free will.

No, it doesn't... so long as you acknowledge that God is not within time.

> > See above regarding your use of "going to".  If God is outside time,
> > you cannot apply temporal restrictions.
>
> I'm not applying a temporal restriction on "god". However, I have to
> apply one on human existance.

You are saying that God does something before or after a person.  That's
simply not possible.

> > > As far as the film analogy goes, at the time of the filming, the
> > > actors have free will. Watching the film 20 times won't change
> > > what's on it. If god knows what's going to happen, then we are
> > > living in an already post production movie where he knows the
> > > outcome.
> >
> > No, we are living at the time of filming and God is living at the time
> > of post-production.  There is no reason to conflate the two timelines.
>
> Then you've just ruled out free will.

I didn't.  You just said that the folks depicted on film had free will at
the time of shooting.  God does not exist at the time of shooting... or
before shooting or after.  God (in this hypothetical case) exists outside
of time.

> An all knowing god, as the bible and christianity claim, would know all
> that has happened, and will happen. Consequently, he will know what will
> happen, BEFORE it happens on our time line.

NO.  Jiminy Crickets, Russell... how can you fail to get this?

You're writing that God had some temporal quality.  You're writing that
God KNEW BEFORE.  This God cannot be referenced in the past tense.  Hence,
you cannot say, "God knows before" because that would mean that, in the
"after", "God knew before".  That cannot be.

> > And you can't lose what you don't have.
>
> So you don't think you have free will either?

I think I do, but I know I don't.

> And if god knows, I don't have a choice in the matter.

That does not follow.  I know what my roomate is doing, but she still has
a choice in the matter.

By the way, let's keep this straight.  We're not talking about a generic
"god" here.  We've defined our term to be a particular being and should
use this as a proper name.  This is God, not god.  They mean different
things and hypotheticals are confusing enough already.

> You are completely ignoring the fact that christianity claims god knows
> all and sees all.

I'm not.  Not at all.  Never once did I deny that or write anything that
conflicts with that (within the hypothetical).

> > > My response is that given those facts, I no longer have free will,
> > > because my "choice" is already known to this omnipotent being.
> >
> > Not "already".  Get time out of it and see if it makes any sense.
>
> You can't take time out of it, because one being in the equation is
> governed by time.

But not the one to which you are applying time!

> > And it's not true that you "no longer" have free will because you
> > didn't have it in the first place.
>
> If you believe the crap the church trowels out.

No, it's because I believe the stuff laboratories and universities trowel
out... all that shit about physics, chemistry, and biology.

J.
-- 
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     Jeme A Brelin
    jeme at brelin.net
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