[PLUG-TALK] Re: [PLUG] Mad SCO Disease

AthlonRob AthlonRob at axpr.net
Tue Jun 29 06:47:39 UTC 2004


On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 23:24 -0700, Russell Senior wrote:
> I come at this whole issue from what seems like a unique perspective.

Perhaps between Jeme's and my complete opposite opinions about just
about everything... yeah.  :-)

> I grew up in a house with guns.  I am not afraid of them.  I learned
> to shoot proficiently.  I have shot at small fury animals and turned
> portions of them into a fine mist.  When I was in high school, I
> repeatedly took riflery in PE and fired live ammunition in the school
> range under the auditorium.  I own a gun, though it is currently in
> someone else's care.  I understand that, in some contexts, guns have
> utility.  I understand that someone in a rural environment lives in a
> substantially different firearms context than someone in an urban
> environment, and further that our legal architecture has trouble
> adapting itself to this dichotomy.

Okay, I'm with you so far.  We didn't have riflery in PE around here,
unfortunately, and I haven't had enough practice to consider myself a
good shot.  :-)

> I, however, live in an urban environment.  I also think that: a) I
> don't want to kill anyone[1]; b) I don't think anyone wants to kill
> me[2]; c) that carrying a gun, perhaps paradoxically, reduces my
> safety because of second-order effects; and therefore d) getting
> worked up about threats to my safety enough to carry a gun around for
> "protection" seems like a silly and counter-productive thing to do.

Would you elaborate on point c?

> I don't begrudge rural people their firearms.  I think whatever
> theoretical benefit to liberty that gun ownership brings is somewhat
> remote (current data suggests that mortars, RPGs and improvised
> explosive devices seem better suited to that function).  

I usually stay away from 2nd Amendment arguments... I don't think it was
a well written amendment.  However, as I read it, it states we should be
able to own firearms to defend ourselves from an oppressive government.
As little sense as that may make to you, it's what it says... and we've
pretty much declared that if the Constitution says it, we follow it.

People cry about common-sense violations of the 4th Amendment all the
time, but one rarely hears the other side of things when the 2nd
Amendment is violated.

> I think the
> threat of rampaging armed criminals is substantially overblown and
> further that obsessing over it (and trying to take personal
> responsibility for solving it with firearms) in aggregate probably
> makes the problem worse rather than better.  

I disagree.  I think the threat of violent crime, especially in urban
areas, is high enough to justify the carrying of a firearm.  If you took
a random sampling of people, you'd probably find a high percentage of
them have been the victims of violent crime by strangers.  The odds are
pretty good if they had been armed, a great many of them wouldn't have
been harmed.

To say it is some kind of a war zone out there is ridiculous - rational
individuals aren't stating that.  The statistics state, though, that it
isn't uncommon to be the victim of a violent crime... so you can't say
we're arming ourselves against something which doesn't exist.

I'm not entirely sure how law-abiding citizens arming themselves is
going to make the problem worse, either... if you would please elaborate
on that....  :-)

> I think gun owners would
> benefit from intellectually separating the "fun" part of shooting from
> the (I think) fatuous rationalizing that they are somehow contributing
> to society by packing heat around in a city like Portland.

I don't think those with conceal carry permits who actually do carry
concealed think they're contributing to society.  Sure, a few do... but
most don't.  Most feel they're contributing to their own personal safety
and the safety of those with them.

That is, of course, unless you're touching on the Libertarians' views on
gun ownership... I do think they make some valid points, but the
Libertarians, in general, are too quick to assume people are rational
(as is, IMHO, Jeme) when they simply are not.

-- 
Rob                                |  If not safe,
   Jabber: athlonrob at axpr.net   |    one can never be free.






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