[PLUG-TALK] Defense of marriage...

Michael Robinson plug_1 at robinson-west.com
Fri Feb 27 15:37:15 UTC 2009


> > Satan wishes to keep God out of people's souls and 
> > burn them.
> 
> Hence, by being such a nut-job and giving Christianity a bad name,
> you're assisting Satan by making "Christians" look like idiots 
> and fascists.

"Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on
solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see
as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4][5] Fascists aim to
create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator
who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to
the collective interest of the nation or a race.[6][7][8] Fascist
movements promote violence between nations, political factions, and
races as part of social Darwinist and militarist views that violence
between these groups is natural and a part of evolution and a perpetual
conflict.[9] In the view that violence is a natural part of survival,
fascists believe only the strong can and should survive by being
healthy, vital, and aggressive through conquering and eliminating the
weak and the degenerate.[10][11][12]

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and
opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[13] Fascist
movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct
political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective
nation or race (democracy, individualism, liberalism); that is deemed
detrimental to national identity and unity (internationalism, communism,
class conflict, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances
the power of the "weak" and the degenerate rather than promoting the
power of the "strong" (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to
institutions and cultural values that it proposes (conservatism) and
that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the
nation (pacifism).[14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] "

I'm not a fascist.  Hitler was a fascist.  Hitler banned religion
and executed crippled people, Christians, and Jews in mass.  I do 
not believe in social darwinism, I believe in God's grace and man's
innate goodness.  I believe in God's law and the eventual 
unification of all the people of God in one flock.

> > Stop right there.  Hate the sin, love the sinner.  I haven't 
> > condemned anyone.  Religious tradition concerning: marriage, 
> > God's law, and the laws of nature make it abundantly clear 
> > that it takes: 1 man, 1 woman, and the one true God to make 
> > a marriage.

> Yes, you have condemned people.  You've condemned them by your hard-line
> proclamations of "God's law".  The best I can tell, you are actually
> anti-Christian, because Christ spoke directly and vehemently against
> such hard-line proclamations.  The more you yap about God's law, the
> more like the anti-Christ you sound.  Indeed, the more you'll help the
> anti-Christ come to power.

How do I know for sure that you aren't the anti Christ?  The fiction
that Christ never took a hard line on an issue is just that, a fiction.
There is the episode where he expelled the money changers from the
temple.  He didn't ask them to leave, he expelled them.  There is the
woman who was to be stoned where Jesus wrote in the dirt.  Perhaps he
was writing the sins of the would be executioners.  When they all left
he didn't say to the woman you are forgiven.  He said essentially, 
is there noone here to stone you?  Then he said, go and sin no more.  
Go and sin no more is a very hard line, in fact it is a command.

> God's law is not Christian.  Christ showed us that Christianity is about
> avoiding judgment of others and loving people no matter what law they
> may or may not follow.  Do not condemn people for their sexuality.  Do
> not condemn people for how they practice marriage.  Stop yapping about
> God's law and get out there and interact with people on a personal level.

Christian literally means universal and yes God's law is Christian.  
The source of all love, God's laws are for all at all times under 
all circumstances across all cultures and that means everyone.
And yes Christ is God.

> > Who is Fred Phelps?
> 
> He's a hard-liner just like you:
> 
>    http://www.godhatesfags.com/
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

I have never said that I hate fags.  I pray for the conversion 
of those who want a "gay" marriage and relief for those who 
struggle with same sex attractions.  That is very different 
from hating gays.  Homosexuality is a psychological disease.
Too many people suffer under the cross of same sex attraction,
but nowhere near as many as some people would suggest.
Marriage has to be protected as it is a vital institution.
Every child deserves to be the natural product of a loving
union of a husband and wife who are male and female 
respectively.

> They _also_ claim to love the sinner, hate the sin. They don't hate gay
> people, they arrogantly claim that God hates them.  Just like you.  They
> proclaim God's law and enlighten sinners everywhere about what God
> thinks and wants, just like you tell us what God thinks and wants.

So, anyone who thinks homosexuality is gravely disordered or a trial
for some people is a bigot.

I see I can't have a meaningful discussion with you about the true
nature of marriage.  God doesn't hate anyone, but some people who
abuse marriage hate God.

> In fact, I strongly suggest you join the Westboro Baptist Church.  
> You'd fit right in with your anti-Christ messages.

I'm not a Baptist nor will I ever be.  God does not hate gays, he
created them.  That said, God did not create them gay nor does he
want people to engage in homosexual acts.  God made this clear
when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the Apostles reaffirm
that homosexual acts are gravely depraved in the New Testament.

Christ did NOT elevate same sex unions at the wedding of Cana or 
at any other time in his 33 year ministry.  It's because marriage 
is NOT a same sex union institution.

> > I can to some extent 
> > influence the laws of man though and I will, as much as 
> > possible, keep them compatible with God's law.
> 
> _How_ will you influence the laws of this country?  If you do it in a
> democratic way, then you're supporting our government.  If you do it in
> a religious way, then you're supporting a theocracy.

A democracy, a true democracy, one that grants it citizens 
religious freedom, does not replace the people's God.  I 
vote for candidates who respect God's law as well as measures 
that respect life and promote the common good because of man's 
God given dignity.  This is why I voted against Merkley and 
I voted against Obama.  

> > A line has to be drawn when it comes to marriage.

> You are so arrogant that you've appointed yourself the interpreter of
> God's law.  You have no idea what God wants or thinks.  The sooner you
> admit your ignorance, the sooner you will stop helping the anti-Christ
> and start helping the actual Christ.

Amazingly you neglect to mention that you yourself are being arrogant.

Listen to the truth about God's creation of marriage:

"The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married
state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its
own proper laws....God himself is the author of marriage."  The vocation
of marriage is written in the very nature of man and women as they came
from the hand of the Creator.  Marriage is not purely a human
institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through
the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual
attitudes.  These differences should not cause us to forget its common
and permanent characteristics.  Although the dignity of the institution 
is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity, some sense of the
greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures.  "The
well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian
society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and
family relations."

"Holy scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another:
"It is not good that man should be alone."  The woman, "flesh of his
flesh," i.e., his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is
given to him by God as a "helpmate"; she thus represents God from whom
comes our help.  "Therefore a man leaves his father and mother and
cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."  The Lord himself shows
that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives be recalling
what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they
are no longer two, but one flesh."

Now on homosexuality, the Catechism I am quoting says:

2357
"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who
experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction towards persons
of the same sex.  It has taken a great variety of forms through the
centuries and in different cultures.  Its psychological genesis remains
largely unexplained.  Basing itself on sacred scripture, which
represents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has
always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."
They are contrary to the natural law.  They close the sexual act to
the gift of life.  They do not proceed from a genuine affective and
sexual complementarity.  Under no circumstances can they be approved.




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