[PLUG-TALK] Religion is not bad...

drew wymore drew.wymore at gmail.com
Fri Oct 30 04:09:46 UTC 2009


On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Michael Robinson
<plug_1 at robinson-west.com>wrote:

> What influences us most certainly can be studied scientifically
> even if the influence is God.
>
> > I can't prove you're wrong any more than you can prove I'm wrong.
> > Faith is not about proof. In fact, those who teach faith actively
> > encourage their pupils to reject proof. You should know this as well
> > as I do.
> >
> > As per usual, you have only chosen to respond to the bits that are
> > convenient for you. Of course, that is your right, but it illustrates
> > perfectly the fact that you are only interested in serving yourself.
> >
> > I wholly reject your claim that God IS "working on" my heart. Maybe He
> > is, maybe He isn't, but it is not for you to tell me. Nor anyone.
> >
>
> You mean you know for a fact that it absolutely can't be proven that
> God is influencing you?  You are such an expert on God Wes that you
> know he isn't influencing you and you can prove it?  Maybe your heart
> is as black as coal and God doesn't work on it.
>
> Believing something isn't about rejecting proof.  Having faith
> without reasoning is as bad as reasoning without faith.  The thing
> with faith is someone who has faith doesn't necessarily feel a
> need to prove what they believe, but that doesn't mean that an
> article of faith can't be reasoned about.  It can be scientifically
> studied if people of faith verses atheists are more or less likely
> to enter into conflict.  One can scientifically study and
> statistically analyze the marriages of people of faith verses the
> marriages of people without faith to see if one group consistently
> stays married longer than the other.  Faith is a way to see what
> our limited reasoning cannot show us.  Faith and hope are necessary
> for a person to experience love, a giving of oneself for the good
> of another person.  It is dangerous to trust someone, you can
> get hurt.
>
> I take issue with your faith is taught statement.  Faith is a gift
> from God.  You can not make a person believe something.  I can not
> make you believe in God and likewise you cannot destroy my faith
> in Him.
>
>
If faith is a gift, then we aren't born with it and thus have to be taught
it (i.e. sunday school) ?



> What is so bad about someone telling you that God may be working on
> your heart?  What are you afraid of Wes?  Why is your mind closed
> to God?  Minds should be open, not closed.
>
> Do you ever pray Wes?  Do you ever ask God to open your eyes?  You
> say there's no God, but then how did the big bang happen?  Who or
> what created the very first whatever if indeed everything sprang
> from it?  Why is there so much order in nature if the natural world
> is merely the product of random mutations over a long period of time?
> Is 65 million years really long enough for an animal to evolve into
> what we are today?  I don't think it is.  I say if you've ever loved
> anyone that God helped you do that.  Man is fallen and cannot find
> his way without God.  It is possible Wes that you are lost and in
> your desperation you lash out at people who aren't lost.
>
>
Once again, if someone disagrees with you with, suddenly they become some
evil individual.




> Seeing something is proof of it.  And God said to Thomas, blessed are
> those who have not seen and yet believe.


We have a word for those who believe god spoke to them these days, it's
called crazy.



> Thomas put his fingers in the
> nail holes in Jesus' body.  Do you really think if the Apostles didn't
> see Christ resurrected that the bible would have survived intact saying
> they did?  How about the burning bush that was not consumed?  How did
> the Israelites survive on manna in a desert if the closest thing to that
> doesn't occur in sufficient quantities unless God did something?  What
> about non biblical sources about the times the bible is written about
> that add credence to it?  Can you find secular accounts of the
> cruxifictions of people in ancient Rome?  How about the parting of the
> Red Sea?  What are the chances of the wind hitting the water with the
> right amount of force at the right angle for a corridor to open up
> from bank to bank and stay open long enough for thousands of people to
> cross?  How about the account of Jesus meeting with fisherman who had
> caught no fish and filling their nets to bursting?  Why would Christ say
> time and time again when someone would touch Him hoping it would heal
> them, your faith has saved you?
>
> The early Christians were hunted nearly to extinction by the Romans.
> There are non biblical accounts of this.  Nothing should have survived.
> In fact, the Catholic church has been around since Christ instituted
> it with Peter.  There is a line of succession all the way to the
> present Pope Benedict that is unbroken and yes you can scientifically
> study that.  That would be a genealogical study.
>
> As far as the "...it is not for you to tell me," why am I not to tell
> you?  Is this how you deal with things/people you don't want to believe
> in?


Perhaps it's not your place to tell him because he chooses to deal with his
ideas of faith in some other way without someone attempting to force his
beliefs upon him.


> I think you are your own worst enemy when it comes to God Wes.
> It might be easy, maybe even fun to point a finger at me.  That pointing
> won't make me the problem Wes.
>
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