[PLUG-TALK] Religion is not bad...

wes plug at the-wes.com
Fri Oct 30 18:46:33 UTC 2009


On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:53 AM, Michael Robinson
<plug_1 at robinson-west.com>wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 21:58 -0700, Russell Johnson wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Michael Robinson wrote:
> >
> > > Russell, you can't prove that God didn't make your friend the person
> > > he
> > > is before he "found Jesus."
> >
> > The reverse is also true. You can't prove that God did make your
> > friend the person he is before he "found Jesus."
>
> Wrong.  You can rule out a person coming to a belief in God from
> a non divine influence.  If the only influences on a person's
> religious faith are the crappy theories of atheists, it is doubtful
> and at best highly unlikely that they will come to believe in God.
> It is common sense that you don't go to God unless He makes Himself
> known to you.
>

Your words contradict themselves. You said it's unlikely someone will know
God if his only influence is from those who do not know God. Then you said
that God makes Himself known to you. If God makes Himself known, why do you
feel so burdened by the responsibility to make the introduction? Why not let
God speak for Himself as you stated he does?

> > God deserves worship for creating Man with both
> > > a natural and supernatural nature.  God is everyone's Father and he
> > > deserves our attention and consideration.
> > This pre-supposes the existence of god. This is faith, and that's what
> > I have an issue with. Believing in something without any concrete,
> > reproducible evidence.
>
> Ahem, there is plenty of concrete evidence to point to that supports
> belief in God.


No, there is not. If there were, there would be no faith and we would not be
having this discussion.

There is the existence of the Vatican which has been
> the center of the Catholic church for centuries.


So?

Believing that men
> can produce a single faith and keep it together for centuries if it
> is based on a false god is ridiculous.


No, it isn't. It happens all the time, both within and without Catholicism.

There are statues of Mary
> that bleed


No, there aren't.

and the blood is identifiable as human and a very rare
> type.


No, it isn't.

There are apparitions where there have been secrets
> revealed that have come true.


No, there aren't.

Their is our Lady of Fatima.


No, there isn't.

The lady
> of Guadalupe.


Fiction.

There are the Medjugore apparitions.


Nope. Didn't happen.

All of these
> apparitions are of the same person, the first Christian.  There have
> been miracles of the Eucharist where priests who lacked faith have
> had a host turn into human flesh or the wine into physical blood.
>

That didn't happen either.

There are other miracles of the Eucharist as well, like when a local
> church in Portland was the site of the Eucharist appearing out of
> thin air in an amount that matched the number of people present at
> a mass.


Is there video of this?

There have been miracles since the time of Christ at least,
> too many to count.  Maybe some of them could be explained by science,
> but not all of them.


Wrong. Every last one of them can be explained by science. Perhaps not the
science of the day it happened, and perhaps the needed evidence is gone, but
that doesn't make it God's work.

Christ would have known modern medicine and
> the mud he put on the blind man's eyes may have had something in it,
> but even so, giving that blind man sight at that time was a miracle.
>

Which didn't happen.

It's hard even today to give a person back their eyesight.  There
> is more to talk about of course that proves God's existence and
> His concern for humanity.


Please provide one example of something that proves God's existence. His
concern for humanity is another subject altogether...

There is the story of Jesus raising
> Lazarus from the dead.  Rigamortis had set in if the man stank.
> There are stories of Jesus curing leprosy which there wasn't a cure
> for even a 100 years ago.


There are stories, yes. None of that really happened.

The shroud of Turin may be Christ's burial
> cloth which has a photograph of Christ's body on it.  Scientific
> studies can't prove this is Christ's burial cloth, but they can
> show that the technology to produce the image wasn't common when
> the cloth was made.


Wasn't common... but did exist.

The carbon dating is off because the cloth
> was in a fire.  There are priests, brothers, and sisters whose
> hands and feet bear the wounds inflicted on Christ and they are
> called stigmatists.  There have been cases of very holy priests,
> brothers, and sisters levitating.


Have not.

Look at the saints of the
> church, there are a lot of them.  Joan of Arc for example was
> burned at the stake where her heart remained and was solid gold.
>

Not really.

Explain incorruptible saints that never go through rigamortis.
> There is one in Mexico City.  He has been dead for at least a
> century, but he looks like he is merely sleeping.


Show me.

How many
> pages would this email have to be for an atheist to open
> his/her eyes and accept that God is real?


Doesn't even have to be 1 page; just need one thing that proves God is real.
And I don't mean 1 thing I can't explain. I need something I CAN explain,
and for that explanation to be God's will.

It would be
> abusive to make this longer, it's too long as it is.
>

Agreed.

> >  Atheism is a cancer that I pray will be cured some day soon.
> >
> > I hope nothing of the sort. If alternatives are not out there, it
> > would be a boring world indeed.
> >
> > If everyone believed as you did, what would you write about? You can't
> > honestly believe that your life would be fulfilling if no one
> > disagreed with you...
>
> It is a sad when people disagree with you on what really counts, what
> really matters.


Agreed, it is very sad when people disagree about what really matters.

Atheists are wrong,


Not necessarily.

but clearly many won't admit it.
>

"Won't admit" ??? This implies that atheists are bring intentionally
incorrect. Nothing could be further from the truth. But your faith won't let
you believe that, right?


> They have a life time fortunately to get a clue.


Great. Leave us/them alone then.

God won't enter and
> live in a soul that is dead.


So the only way for my "soul" to be "alive" is to believe in God?

The prayers of others can turn an atheist
> around.


No, they can't.

For those of us who are non atheists, you need to pray.
>

Good luck with that.

-wes
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