[PLUG-TALK] Religion is not bad...

wes plug at the-wes.com
Fri Oct 30 21:00:57 UTC 2009


On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Michael Robinson <plug_1 at robinson-west.com
> wrote:

> Wes, I've told you about miracles and apparitions that have really
> happened


Yes, you have told me.

and you have ignored me over and over and over.


I did not ignore you. I weighed the evidence you presented (none) and
informed you that you were wrong.

You can
> ignore me at first glance, but you should look into them if you are
> at all a conscientious person deserving any respect from anyone.
>

I've looked into several. I'm not going to go chasing every ghost story.
They have Ghost Hunters for that.

Miracles of the Eucharist are still around today.


No, they're not.


> You need to go
> to Europe and visit Fatima.  You need to visit Lourdes.  You need to
> visit the place in Japan where the statue of the virgin Mary bled.
>

It's on the to-do list. Don't you have anything local?

And this has happened in other places as well by the way.


No, it didn't.

I'm not
> going to say that every story of a Mary statue bleeding is true,
>

Good.

but stories of it that are true have been tested scientifically
>

Some of those "scientific tests" were not scientific tests at all. Others
disproved the story, but were suppressed by the church.

or it wouldn't be known that the blood is human and that no known
> trick was used to cause the statue to bleed.


Those things are not, in fact, known.

If you are closed
> minded in that you won't accept the truth even if it is right in
> front of your nose, nobody can help you.


I am not closed minded about evidence in front of me. There just isn't any.

God won't help you unless
> someone prays for you perhaps.  That is a major hint to anybody
> reading this who believes in God concerning what they should do.
>

I welcome any "help" anyone is willing to provide.

The heart of Joan of Arc after she was burned at the stake as a
> heretic by the corrupt English court system did remain and was
> solid gold.


No, it didn't, and no, it wasn't.

The miracle of the Eucharist that happened in
> Portland at St. Stanislaus did happen.


No, it didn't.

The virgin Mary,
> the mother of Jesus, has been appearing and warning people
> that they need to pray, obey God's law, and fast to avert
> chastisements.


No, she hasn't.

Only a doubting Thomas would say I have
> to see a picture of a miracle to believe that miracles happen.
>

My name is not Thomas, but I do doubt your words and motivations quite
vehemently.

Even then, you won't believe as you will question how the
> picture was produced and claim that it's a photo shop job.
>

You're right. I won't believe it, because it is a hoax.

You are impossible to convince because you won't look into
> these things yourself.


Same is true for you - you have accepted what you were taught at face value
and you refuse to investigate or tolerate any other possible answers.

Someone has to bring it to you on
> a silver platter, which is very hard to do.


I have not asked anyone to do anything for me. I have only asked that you
not interfere with what I do for myself.

You have decided
> what is true and what isn't about God and Christianity without
> making an effort of any kind whatsoever to make sure you are
> right.
>

I have decided no such thing. I have only decided that you are not qualified
to tell me what is true.

As I see it, you selfishly want to remain an atheist because
> you don't trust that you would be better off as a man of God.
>

I'm not sure how my beliefs can be considered selfish. I am generally a very
giving person. There are people that are on this list that know me and can
attest to this. You are correct that I don't believe I would be better off
as a man of God. I also don't believe that you are better off as a man of
God. I would much prefer that you use your talents for bullying to achieve
something useful. You would be an excellent negotiator with terrorists, for
example.

You are a coward Wes.


*shrug*

You argue with me without scholarship
> and you are angry, very angry.


I bring to the table exactly as much "scholarship" as you do.

I'm not your problem Wes, you
> are your own problem.
>

I don't frighten myself nearly as much as you do.

Miracles aren't necessary to believe in God, but they can be nice
> tangible things to use as a reason for faith.
>

A nice miracle would be for you to go away.

What reason do I have to lie about the truths in the bible?


Power.

Why
> would I lie about miracles?


I'm not certain it's lies, as you may certainly believe they happened. But
whatever caused you to believe they happened, is a lie. There's deception at
the center of every hoax.

Do you honestly think I could convince
> you to believe anything by lying to you Wes and getting caught
> lying?


I'm pretty sure the persuasion would rely on not getting caught lying.

Number one, faith comes from God.


'K.

Number two, faith is
> revealed to us as Truth.
>

Is it your place to reveal that Truth? Or are you supposed to let me find my
own way?

For a second Wes do something terrifying and accept that every
> miracle in the bible and every other miracle I've tried to
> mention really did happen.  If you knew this to be true, what
> would be your position on God?


If I assumed every supernatural event mentioned in the Bible really
happened, yes I would believe in God without reservation.

Would you have faith in Him?
>

Faith in His existence? Yes. His concern for humanity would still be in
question.

The ultimate goal of reasoning, of rational thought, is to find
> the Truth.


Agreed.

There is a single Truth and that Truth is where you
> will find God.
>

Ok. I'll let you know when I find it.

-wes
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