<html><head></head><body><div><font face="monospace">I will, probably, regret getting involved in this in the next 5 minutes or even sooner, but for the sake of people forming "qualified" opinions based on randomly found internet stuff.</font></div><div><font face="monospace">I used to be certified for home and industrial installations up to 2kV, so I feel that I need to step in here.</font></div><div><font face="monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face="monospace">You imply that stranded core wire is somehow safer/superior to solid one - that is simply false statement. </font></div><div><font face="monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face="monospace">The correct choice of wire type is driven by the application:</font></div><div><font face="monospace"> * for fixed installation inside walls or fixed conduits or channels - solid core is better, cheaper and safer choice</font></div><div><font face="monospace"> * for flexible installations where movement, twisting, flexing can occur OUTSIDE walls and fixed conduits/channels stranded conduits are mandatory</font></div><div><font face="monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face="monospace"> * solid core wire has higher power density in volume as well as in the connections and is generally more durable than stranded wire in static installations. So you safe $$ on Cu/AL gauge for a given current.</font></div><div><font face="monospace"> * stranded wire has lower power density, less reliable connections and is less durable due to significantly larger strand surface. So, everything needs to be thicker, bulkier for given current and doing that drives lower reliability and higher cost.</font></div><div><font face="monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face="monospace">Eric hit the nail on the head: "<span style="font-family: monospace;">the biggest benefit to the inspections (for me) is when I move into </span></font><span style="font-family: monospace;">a house that I know nothing about"</span></div><div><span style="font-family: monospace;">This is safety, reliability and economics problem - like using not maintained cars, DUI, not maintaining schools, water pipes, hanging wires on poles instead burying them, etc., etc.</span></div><div><font face="monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face="monospace">This discussion is a proof that the good inspections and good codes are necessary and positive for the society at large - Unless of course we accept personal responsibility and require "free" home owners to isolate themselves from harming the society and posting demolition and insurance bonds used to remove their houses when abandoned and recover the cost of harming others by their original builder.</font></div><div><br></div><div><font face="monospace">I hope it makes sense,</font></div><div><font face="monospace">Tomas</font></div><div><div><br></div><div>On Thu, 2017-04-06 at 13:25 -0700, Chuck Hast wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite"><pre>What drives me up a wall is seeing houses wired with Romex and it is stapled
down to the wood. If you have to pull that sucker out you have to tear the
whole wall out to get to it and remove it, I have also seen staples that
broke
through the insolation enough that especially in warm climates the remaining
plastic isolation would migrate, you get a short and either the breaker
opens
or the short is a hot short but does not pull enough current to toss the
breaker
but now you have a hot spot or fire... I replaced all of that with conduit
and
stranded wire, solid wire is another thing that I have never understood I
do not
believe that I have been in another country where they allowed solid wire,
only in our country. When I lived in Costa Rica, solid wire was banned, same
went for Mexico, and I do not recall seeing it in the other countries I
live in
either.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Erik Lane <<a href="mailto:eriklane@gmail.com">eriklane@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
I think the biggest benefit to the inspections (for me) is when I move into
a house that I know nothing about. Especially for plumbing and electrical,
I want to know that the work was at least looked at by a third party that
knows their stuff. (Though I guess for roofing and structural it's also
pretty important.) I've seen some CRAZY stuff out there, and anything
hidden inside a wall will likely stay that way until it comes out to bite
you. No way to inspect for that when you're buying a house...
Yes, when I'm doing my own work and know it's good it's a hassle to bother
with the permit and inspections, but in that case I think of it mainly as
protecting people down the road. (They have no way of knowing that I do
quality work, except that it passed inspection.)
I like that idea of having lighting on its own panel and so many separate
circuits for different things in preparation for solar. It would sure give
you fine-grained control! Never going to happen at this house, though.
Reworking everything and tearing it apart just doesn't make sense unless I
was going to get into all the walls anyway, and of course I'm not planning
to. (Knock on wood. :) )
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On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Chuck Hast <<a href="mailto:wchast@gmail.com">wchast@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
Exactly, most of my electrical work has been industrial, one receptacle
</blockquote>
per
<blockquote type="cite">
breaker type work. When I went in to redo the home in Tampa, I found as
many as 6 receptacles per breaker, needless to say I fixed that because
</blockquote>
of
<blockquote type="cite">
the same issue, wife can always find the receptacle that has a big load
</blockquote>
on
<blockquote type="cite">
it and plug something else in and toss the breaker. So when I rewired it
</blockquote>
I
<blockquote type="cite">
put
one receptacle/breaker. 12Ga wire and 20 amp service to all of them, used
industrial grade receptacles (20amp) so had no issues with her doing her
thing on ONE but each had its own breaker. The lighting I put on a
</blockquote>
separate
<blockquote type="cite">
panel as I was planning on that being the first part to go solar. I had
moved
to all CFL and was starting to move to LED. I had the power consumption
for lighting down to 400 watts with both all inside and outside (had some
150W
CFLs) normal operations, I would see between 25 and 50W of pull with a
normal set of lights on in the home at any given time. Most of the time
</blockquote>
it
<blockquote type="cite">
was
at or below the 25W level.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Dick Steffens <<a href="mailto:dick@dicksteffens.com">dick@dicksteffens.com</a>>
wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
On 04/06/2017 07:56 AM, Chuck Hast wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
Yea, I keep on forgetting that for a lot of things out here you need
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
a
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
permit. The
one thing I miss about FL. I replaced all of the wiring in one house
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
had
<blockquote type="cite">
a
<blockquote type="cite">
good
electrician friend come over took a look at it said it was ABOVE spec
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
gave
it his blessing. I understand when it is a commercial job or
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
something
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
like
<blockquote type="cite">
a res-
idential rewire ( I was getting my place ready to add solar panels
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
separate
the low power consumption parts from the high power consumers) but
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
even
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
then to demand a permit for everything is just way beyond what I see
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
as
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
good.
Bureaucracy run wild.
</blockquote>
There's a good side to the permit/inspection bureaucracy, as well as
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
the
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
annoying side. It's an insurance plus to have had a permit/inspection
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
if
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
something goes wrong down the road. On the other hand, I know that some
things that are "to code" aren't as good as what I want. And while what
I want isn't against the code, it's also not what a typical electrician
would do. Back in the '90s my wife and I volunteered with Habitat for
Humanity on a project in Aloha. A retired Westinghouse electrical
engineer (power) was the site supervisor, and an electrician who was a
member of the sponsoring church consulted. After a little instruction
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
on
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
things I had never done (heavy cable and the use of the grease on the
connection fittings) we wired 10 houses from the meter base on the side
of the house in. The engineer and I designed the wiring so that there
were two different 20 amp circuits in each of the four bedrooms. (Not
that there were just the two outlets in that room were the only outlets
on one circuit. The same two circuits served two rooms.) This was done
because the typical family had six or more members, (Mom, Dad, and four
kids) and one bathroom. So there could be up to four or five hair
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
driers
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
running in the morning. Anyway, Habitat had an electrical contractor
wire another one of the houses. The electricians didn't follow our
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
plan,
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
but did their typical run. That put too many outlets on one circuit for
the need. It was to code, but not what was needed. So, yes. A good idea
to make sure the wiring meets code, but being able to do it yourself so
you get what you want is a major benefit.
--
Regards,
Dick Steffens
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</blockquote>
--
Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT --
Glass, five thousand years of history and getting better.
The only container material that the USDA gives blanket approval on.
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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