[PLUG] PLUG meeting

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

On Sat, 2002-12-07 at 14:53, Jeme A Brelin wrote:
> On 7 Dec 2002, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
> > Greed-Capitalist Schizophrenia ?
> 
> To say that capitalists are greedy is a truism.  As one philosopher put
> it, "Asking a capitalist to be less greedy is exactly the same as asking a
> totalitarian system to be less brutal.  The question isn't "how do we make 
> private power less greedy and brutal?"  But "how do we get rid of it?""

Not all capitalists are greedy, that is why I made a distinction between
them and Greed-Capitalists.  What I am trying to convey (my nomenclature
re classes of "capitalists" may well be in need of revision) is that
just because you sell a product for profit does not mean you are an evil
greedy daddy war bucks who doesn't care about the welfare of his labor,
or the health of the global ecosystem.  Just becuase the newly
deprecated legacy product you sell presently is no longer viewed as
acceptable does not mean you are behind the times... well, they sell oil
because that's all there is right now.  That can change, but not
overnight.  It's not an easy problem to solve, you know.  There are many
many engineering and logistics problems involved that are way beyond the
comprehension of your average tree hugging pedestrian.

I suppose that not all totalitarian systems need be brutal either. Nor
all facist regimes evil.  Would a benevolent pot smoking dictator or a
totally libertarian free for all anarchy please all of the people? 
There has to be law, order, and coordination of efforts, but there's a
limit to what a government can (not should) practically regulate.  We
don't place all power in a king or dictator because we know that some
men are not responsible given power.  Even our president is bound by
law.

> > And to take that target on their backs seriously enough to keep an eye
> > on who might in reality be an enemy of freedom and liberty.
> 
> I highly recommend everyone hear read this page:
> <URL: http://www.darpa.mil/iao/ >
> 
> Tell me this isn't the most aggressive and straightforward fascist agenda
> you've ever read.  (Have you ever read a self-published fascist
> agenda?  HINT:  They sound just like that page.)

I don't read fascism into that page, Jeme.  Wanting to find ways to
protect your homeland and children is not fascist any more than being a
strict parent is, perhaps.  I have nothing to hide, and am not really
paranoid enough... paranoid enough... to believe that "homeland
security" or "DARPA" is our worst nightmare.  If they see this thread, I
doubt they are going to freak out and send a black helicopter unless
they need Linux consultants.  (Hello to all my friends in domestic
surveilance!  Cheap rates!  Student labor!)

> > Why do freedom and clean air seem so intimately related in my rurally
> > nurtured mentality?
> 
> Because your concept of freedom includes not just your own personal
> freedom but ensuring the freedom of others.  This is the difference
> between, for example, Free Software and the merely "open
> source".  Ensuring the freedom of others is a broad and limiting concept
> and it includes ensuring the same rights and privileges you have are
> carried to future generations for all time.  Leaving your progeny with
> befouled air and impure water and tained soil is to deprive them of the
> simple things that you obviously took for granted.

Hmmm.  What do I owe you?  I think that seems right enough.

> > > The public is paying for your car at a far greater cost per mile than
> > > public transit and the general public doesn't even get to use it.
> > 
> > And that cost may not all be measured monetarily, as We well know.
> 
> When GM was found guilty of conpsiring to destroy Chicago's public transit
> system, the judge fined them $5000 for the damage done because, in his
> opinion, "the damage is done now".

Ok, so there was a greed capitalist attempting to create a more
lucrative market for harmful product.  The least they could do is
develop zero emissions vehicles FIRST.  Then hire a bunch of drivers so
we can still read on the way to work or school.