[PLUG] in the mean time

[Russ Johnson]

On Sun, 2002-06-09 at 13:56, Jeme A Brelin wrote:
> That's how the list is configured, so why'd he bring it up?  Neil?

OK, on ME re-reading his post, he does say that he doesn't want these
lists available at all. This I'm not inclined to agree with. 

I *DO* however, feel that names should NOT be included by default. Being
listed in the list of subscribers should be opt-in, not opt-out. 

> Really?  Because I keep reading posts that say "Close the news
> gateway" and "How many people really use this news gateway, anyhow?"

Yes, and several that I've read have said it's a good thing, but only
subscribers should be able to post. They went on to say that it should
be temporarily shut down until spamassassin or some such is set up. 

However, I *DO* feel that you should subscribe to the list to be able to
post. This list should not accept posts from just anyone. That's asking
for spam, and even spamassassin isn't perfect. I get two or three per
week that don't trip spamassassins filtering. There's got to be a better
way than having the list be completely open. 

> Fine.  Then we agree, there.  The goal is simply to prevent spam, not to
> make people feel like they're in some exclusive club.  So we can open the
> list and leave the news gateway, so long as a reasonably successful spam
> filter is in place.

Actually, I disagree with having a completely open list. There must be a
better alternative. 


> Well, I would say that having a public list that rejects posts by
> non-members is annoying behavior that is easily remedied.

There are thousands (millions?) of mailing lists that require
subscribing to post. I find this to be highly effective when it comes to
making sure you keep an excellent signal to noise ratio. Of course, this
list has been deteriorating lately, but I digress.

> Well, I don't personally believe that it's a security issue.  This is,
> after all, a public and publicly archived list.  If it were not, we could
> use the mailing list software's ability to turn off subscriber lists
> entirely.

That's MY information, and NO WHERE does it say that my information will
be available publicly. There should be a notice posted monthly, or it
should default to off. Other options are unacceptable. 

> Making your own address unavailable is, in my opinion, a special need that
> a person can and should meet for themselves (by configuring their personal
> preferences).

That's like saying, "Bank of America will sell your information, unless
you send us a certified notice to have us remove you from our list." The
option should be with the user to choose to distribute, not to choose to
not distribute. 

> > Sort of like your favorite distribution should default to having
> > services turned off.
> 
> A distribution (if you choose to let someone else package your software at
> all) should default to having no services installed at all (except those
> vital to the running of the system like kmod, of course... but would we
> really call that a "service"?  I guess so, in a manner of speaking).

Exactly, and choosing to distribute someone elses information, without
their prior consent, is exactly the same thing, in my book anyway.
Subscribing to a mailing list is not the same as giving someone else
permission to distribute those email addresses. We're going so far
(address munging, etc.) to hide the addresses, then we distribute a
list? That's exactly the opposite direction. Why munge the posters
address in the list, if the list is available for download? 

> I don't see the difference in such a trivial matter.  The software isn't
> built for an opt-in, so we use the only option-producing feature that IS
> available within the software (the opt-out).

See my bank analogy above. 

-- 
"The power to untie is stronger than the power to tie."                 
                                                                        
Well, yeah, otherwise my shoes would tie themselves.                    
                                                                        
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Russ Johnson                                                            
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