[PLUG] Slightly OT: PCC software engineering program

[Brian Beattie]

On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 12:17, Daggett, Steve wrote:
> 
> Brian Beattie:
> > On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 10:34, Daggett, Steve wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Who or what industry uses "coders" who can't design?  or 
> > > > maybe I don't
> > > > know what a coder is.  In my 25 years of programming I don't 
> > > > think I've
> > > > ever done any work that did not require some design.  
> > > > Though I've been
> > > > in the embedded systems/systems programming area.
> > > 
> > >   I just did a project with those guys!  The whole 
> > > organization seemed to be
> > 
> > which guys?
> 
>   They aren't local, or even West coast.  You should never meet.  Other than
> that, It wouldn't be wise to comment in a public forum.  

OK it sounded like you thought I was refering to somebody, was just
trying to clear that up.

> > I've never seen this, or if I did I must have ignored it and 
> > gone about
> > my the bigger the job, the more detailed the design, but lets not go
> > overboard and design a 747 when we want a toy airplane :)
> 
>   I didn't want to design a 747.  I wanted *some* rational design that we
> could all agree would be a working concept.  Especially after the 3rd or 4th
> failed attempt.  

I kind of know what you are talking about, there was one job I had where
I was doing sys/net admin so I was not directly involved in the
technical side that seemed to be doing that, though they did seem to be
doing design work, or maybe that was just marketing doing the
requirements.

But whether it was redesign, redesign or no design it was totally
screwed up, pissed away a good opportunity.  

I remember another one, where the manager spent half the project
defining a standard for function and variable names(much like the MS
nonsense), I don't think he ever delivered either.

> 
> > If it were easy anybody could do it.
> > 
> > When I have interviewed people I'm more concerned with their
> > intelligence than their experience had one guy with an advanced degree
> > in CS, completely useless.
> 
>   Some of the best programmers I've worked with didn't have programming
> degrees.  One guy had degree in Theatrical Arts. 

I suspect that good programmers are born, not made :).  In any case all
the book learning in the world won't make a good programmer.  It is a
craft, not a science.  That may change, just as other crafts have
succumb to industrialization and automation but not yet.  We keep trying
to come up with ways to automate the process or at least remove the
"art", Structured Programming, 4GL, 5GL, Object Oriented Programming,
whatever else.  I can't see that they make all that much difference.

-- 
Brian Beattie            | Experienced kernel hacker/embedded systems
beattie at beattie-home.net | programmer, direct or contract, short or
www.beattie-home.net     | long term, available immediately.

"Honor isn't about making the right choices.
It's about dealing with the consequences." -- Midori Koto