[Re: [PLUG] That's it.]

Tue Jun 17 19:04:02 UTC 2003

Dear Mike:

I just thought I would forward a little of the dialog on this list 
concerning whoever told you to go away. I do not believe that person is 
representative of the whole.

I've been doing systems programming since 1979 and started using Unix in 
1981. I still have to ask questions of this group and of my friends. I 
know a lot more now than I did then, but there is way to much for anyone 
(including Linus) to hold in their head.

The Linux community is very diverse, ranging from Libertarians to 
Communists, from Fundamentalist Christians and Moslems to Pagan Witches. 
Out of all this diversity, there are going to be people who will flame 
you at the drop of a hat for your stupidity in not knowing exactly what 
they know. Of course, these same playground bullies will roll over and 
play dead if asked questons about things like priority inheritance or 
other subtle real-time programming issues.

So I am asking you to please return. I really, really, really don't like 
the idea that some jerk chased you away and got his bully jollies out of it.

That said, the single most important thing you can learn is *how* to ask 
questions - not just for this group and not just for technology. How to 
frame a question on a subject that you do not yet understand is a tricky 
piece of knowledge that NOBODY knows intuitively. It's a skill learned 
and perhaps you will learn it hanging out on PLUG.

Peas In Our Thyme,
Ron Braithwaite

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [PLUG] That's it.
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:41:38 -0500
From: Jason Van Cleve <jason at vancleve.com>
Reply-To: plug at lists.pdxlinux.org
Organization: Else For If
To: plug at lists.pdxlinux.org
References: <20030617165312.30547.qmail at web40804.mail.yahoo.com> 
<1055897913.929.384.camel at main>

Well put, Mr. Adams.  Unfortunately, it's now a matter of pride for poor
Mr. Hopcroft.  He put the question to us squarely, did we want him here,
and one of us had the audacity to tell him no.  Having put myself in
that position, I wouldn't come back either.

Mr. Hopcroft, if you're lurking out there, I know how you feel.  Don't
let the bastards get you down!

--Jason Van Cleve

On 17 Jun 2003 17:58:33 -0700
"Steven A. Adams" <stevea at nwtechops.com> wrote:

> I think it might be too late Scott. Looks like PLUG drives yet another
> willing Linux opportunity back to Redmond, good work folks, keep up the
> vicious harassment - it seems to be working.
> 
> 
> "We are a group of enthusiasts dedicated to teaching and learning about
> Linux and Unix. There is no membership fee to join. We welcome people of
> all levels of experience."
> 
> Does this look familiar?
> 
> On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 09:53, Scott Van Hoosen wrote:
> > Michael,
> > 
> > My advice is to not take the criticism you received
> > personally. Stay a member of the list, there is a lot
> > that can be learned just by listening.
> > 
> > If you need to find an answer to a question, first go
> > to Google. Man pages can be helpful, though they're
> > better for reference than instruction. There are
> > numerous tutorials online for all sorts of subjects.
> > 
> > If you can't find your answer in other sources, then
> > post your question to PLUG. Just make sure your
> > question is specific. I don't remember your original
> > question that irritated some people, but I remember it
> > was very general, and would have been impossible to
> > answer in an email.
> > 
> > Anyway, don't give up on the PLUG list, it is a very
> > useful tool, just make sure you use the tool
> > correctly. One rule I try to follow personally is to
> > answer at least one question for every question I ask.
> > 
> > -Scott
> > 
> > --- Michael Hopcroft <mhopcroft at seraphimguard.com>
> > wrote:
> > > 	My condition has been met. I am unsubscribing. I
> > > promise none of you
> > > will ever hear from me again.
> > > 
> > > 	Michael Hopcroft
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PLUG mailing list
> > > PLUG at lists.pdxlinux.org
> > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG at lists.pdxlinux.org
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 

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-- 
"It was much better to imagine men in some smoky room somewhere, made 
mad and cynical by privilege and power, plotting over the brandy. You 
had to cling to this sort of image because if you didn't you would have 
to face the fact that ordinary people, the kind who brushed the dog and 
told their children bed time stories, were capable of then going out and 
doing horrible things to other ordinary people. It was so much easier to 
blame it on "them." It was bleakly depressing to think that they were 
"us." If it was "them" then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was "us" 
then what did that make "me?"  After all, I am one of "us." I have 
certainly never thought of myself as one of "them." No one ever thinks 
of themselves as one of "them." We are always one of "us." It's always 
"them" that does the bad things." - from "Jingo" by Terry Pratchett