[PLUG] Enclousures and power

[Zot O'Connor]

On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 00:52, Michael C. Robinson wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 00:17, Holger Stephan wrote:
> > Speaking of UPS, here is another question: Yesterday I ripped the tired
> > (lead-) batteries out of a UPS and hooked it up to an auto battery I had
> > laying around. That battery was charged and a test with the computer
> > running from the UPS for a while was successful. Did any of you test
> > this setup over a longer period? Does the average UPS charge this large
> > of battery properly? 

The size of the battery should match the charging unit in the UPS.  If
the battery pulls more amps then the unit is rated for, it will burn up
over time.  Of course finding what the real rating is (vs. what the
company will tell you) can be tricky.  Googling is good.

But on to more pressing matters.


> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Holger
> 
> 

Some cut and pastes

> I'm not an EE where my older brother could give a better answer
> if he were on the list now.  I've heard that concrete kills
> lead acid batteries.  I don't know why though.
...
>  I'm not a chemist though, so ask a real one if you want to know. 
...
> I guess 
...
> where I've heard
...
> Wish I knew more about this, but I'm not an EE.
> I guess transformers

HOLY SHIT.  WHY THE FUCK DID YOU ANSWER THIS?

Not only is most of the information just wrong, damn near every other
line says you do not think *you* do not not know what you are talking
about.

Why are you talking then?

Just because someones asks a question, does not mean *you* need to
answer it.  If you don't have a clue, don't prove it to us.  Really we
already know.  Go flame Jeme for some unrelated post...

First off if you want to know about batteries, look at
www.homepower.org.  The best information about batteries is found at the
various alternative energy/living/vehicle sites (Electric cars, wind
power, solar power, dome living).

For the record I am an Electrical Engineer....

> I'm not an EE where my older brother could give a better answer
> if he were on the list now.  I've heard that concrete kills
> lead acid batteries.  I don't know why though.

It depends on how fast the battery approaches the concrete...

WHAT THE FUCK?  What does that have to with anything Stephen asked
about.  Not only is nonsensical, it is completely irrelevant.  Now if
you were mention God in there, then it would be normal, for you, still
nonsensical and irrelevant, but normal, for you.

>   Evidently, any
> battery sitting on a shelf slowly discharges.

This is one of the few correct things in here.  Batteries are stored
chemical power.  The potential energy will find a way to get released. 
Some batteries do this quicker than others.  Car batteries tend to be
slower.

>   Keeping a 
> battery cold such as in a refrigerator is good,

Nope.  This is a myth, and wrong.  There is a slight charge gain back
for taking near dead household batteries and putting then in the fridge,
but it is short lived.  Putting fresh batteries in the fridge actually
shortens their lifespan.

>  I'm guessing
> this slows some chemical reaction that is causing the battery
> to lose it's charge.  Heat being a catalyst for that reaction, 
> refrigeration helps slow it.

Batteries have energy equal to the chemical reaction in them, anyone
with an Electric Car will tell you their range is shorter on a cold
day.  There is less Chemical Potential Energy.  While you do not want
the batteries to boil, the more warm/ambient the better, within a range.

>   Something builds up in lead
> acid batteries over time, but there's a treatment using
> some acid like boric or something that can bring these
> batteries back to life.

The plates get covered.  There are a number of treatments, which many
people swear by, and others swear are frauds.  Time is a pretty good
friend here.  Just let the battery sit for 40 years.

>   I'm not a chemist though, so ask
> a real one if you want to know.  

Again, why post?

> Chemistry seems a whole 
> lot more practical than kinematics for programmers.  Why
> do programmers have to take physics to get a B.S. from
> so many schools around the area?

Do you ever read your own posts and say "WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT GUY
MEAN?"  Most of us do.

> 
> I guess the big thing with charging is to maintain the
> proper voltage where I've heard that slow charging is
> better than quick charging.

Wrong again.  Proper charging involves a fair amount of interactions
between voltage difference, frequencies, fluid conditions, etc.  There
is a curve that is optimal that is pretty damn fast for many batteries. 
Ask an Electric Car owner.

>   My guess is that heat 
> catalyses a reaction in batteries making them 
> discharge faster than they otherwise would.
> 

Don't guess.  Go read on the subject instead.

> Make sure the proper gauge wire for the input and output of the
> battery is connected to it and that the proper resistors are used
> as well I guess.

Don't guess.  While sufficient gauge wires might be important (Stephen
mentioned he replaced an existing battery), there should be no resistors
unless you are trying to change the voltage, or create heat for no
apparent reason.  Given your post, I suppose that is likely.

>   An Ohm meter is a good idea for checking
> the phase of the power off the UPS.

Um, you spelled "Ohm" right, ever thought to look up what it means?  It
is a measure of resistance.  It has nothing to do with Phase.  To get
Phase, if you wanted it, you need an oscilloscope, or one of the cool
Fluke meters, or some other time-based measuring device.

>   Don't plug the battery into
> AC.  

Why not?  You have been guessing all along.  It might be fun.  Of course
hammering the poor little double-A's into the wall socket might wake the
neighbors, but someone has to call 911.

> Wish I knew more about this, but I'm not an EE.

If you truly wish to know more about this, then go research it instead
of giving wrong information.

> I guess transformers are used to control voltages off of a
> power source, but you lose power I think with every transformer 
> so fewer are better.

I was trying to see if I merely re-arraigned the words if I could make
that sentence correct.  I can't.

Transformers change voltage levels (eg 110V to 9V), they do not control
them (Same transformer might make 100V into 8V).  You lose power with
any component, but transformers do not significantly do this.  With the
right kind of motor, and an understanding of Capacitance and Inductance,
you can gain power back.

>   Don't must good ups units discharge one
> battery while charging another one?
> 

This is almost accurate.  2 or more batteries gives you redundancy in
terms of batteries.  If the batteries are always supplying the voltage,
you get a more consistent (but not necessarily smoother) waveform.  A
smart config might charge one battery while the other produces, but it
turns out that has issues as well.

>      --  Michael Robinson

Really, Michael, stop posting so much.  Just because you *can* answer,
doesn't mean you should, it merely means you found the reply key.


-- 
Zot O'Connor

http://www.ZotConsulting.com
http://www.WhiteKnightHackers.com