[PLUG] PLUG vs. PLUG

[Cliff Wells]

On Tue, 2004-01-20 at 01:07, Jeme A Brelin wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Cliff Wells wrote:
> > Jeme A Brelin wrote:
> >
> > >I'm not doing someone else's dirty work.  I have my own reasons for
> > >defending my position and they've all (I think) been stated within this
> > >thread.
> > >
> > Actually, they haven't.  This is at least partially why I am getting
> > annoyed with all the bandwagon jumpers.  I would like to hear a coherent
> > reason *why* anyone should be upset about PDXLUG.
> 
> You'll find that I haven't written that they SHOULD change their name.
> I've merely corrected the misapprehensions you (and a couple of others)
> have had about the history, apparent motivations of those people involved,
> logical argument, and ideological differences between the organizations.

Well, correcting people on other's motivations is rather shaky ground to
start with, especially for people whom you admit you don't know very
well.  Also, commenting on the ideology of an organization you aren't
part of and who has made no public announcment regarding any such
ideology is just as shaky.  But feel free to make unfounded assertions. 
They really forward your argument.

> > Please spare me the horror stories about how emotionally abusive
> > everyone there is as this list is at *least* as bad.
> 
> I think that's something you made up.  Dan wrote that the people on PDXLUG
> were unwilling to discuss the issue like adults.  I (and others) wrote
> that the list administrator runs a totalitarian regime.  But I don't think
> anybody wrote anything about getting their feelings hurt.

It was a bit of pointed sarcasm to try and motivate *someone* to stick
to the point and explain why PDXLUG should change their name rather than
argue about who did what and why they did it, which are probably things
that will never be agreed upon.

> > Instead, give me one solid reason why this should matter to anyone,
> > anyone at all (except David Mandel, who's intentions I'm already aware
> > of).  If you do, I'll address that and perhaps we can come to some
> > sensible conclusion and not call the entire day a waste.
> 
> The O'Reilly and Linux Journal mix-ups have been mentioned already.
> That is, to my mind, example enough to prove that confusion does exist.

I missed the O'Reilly "mix up" thread but I am aware that PDXLUG was
more active in engaging O'Reilly regarding access to OSCON while
apparently whoever was responsible for PLUG dropped the ball.  That
isn't confusion, it's lack of organization on PLUG's part.

> > I am going to disregard the rest of your email as your condescending
> > tone is just too irritating to respond to in any rational way.
> 
> I was showing measured, respectful restraint.  I'm not going to have a
> pissing contest with you and see who can seem more macho and bad-ass.

The simple fact is, I have tried to argue a single point all day: there
is no compelling reason why PDXLUG should change their name.  If you
won't address that then I'm not really interested in exchanging
pleasantries with you.

> I thought maybe you couldn't see that you were being abusive and insulting
> and ignoring the real arguments.  I thought I could help you to see that.
> Help sometimes seems condescending to people who don't know how to take it
> or don't see that they need it.

No, you were being condescending by assuming that I needed help.  I'm
still trying to help you understand what the topic of the argument is. 
We can certainly move to other topics later, but I'd at least like to
get this one thing resolved first.


> > Please feel free to explain yourself in a short, concise fashion and
> > I'll do the same.
> 
> Done.

Not quite, but keep trying.  Just in case you missed it the first couple
of times: please explain why PDXLUG should change their name.  For extra
points, do it without accusing PDXLUG of being fascists or bringing in
bizarre conspiracy theories about how they are trying to disrupt PLUG. 
Just lay out how damage is being done to PLUG (aside from driving people
away with these pointless arguments).

Going to bed now and hoping but not really expecting much better for
tomorrow.

Cliff

-- 
They suffocate in an alarming embrace
                     -Dead Can Dance