[PLUG] new guy with questions

Elliott Mitchell ehem at m5p.com
Tue Jun 27 05:08:26 UTC 2006


>From: Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com>
> # from Elliott Mitchell
> # on Sunday 25 June 2006 08:52 pm:
> 
> >>From: Edward Terry
> >> HTML is another possibility
> >If you show up at an advanced topics meeting and say that you might
> > get punched, and you will deserve that and more.
> 
> You make us sound like a rough crowd.  I've only been to about 15 of 
> these but the heckling never gets quite past the polite jab.  Did there 
> used to be more arm-wrestling, brawling, bouncers, etc?

Yeah, it was an exaggeration. I've been wanting really badly to strangle
*someone* who mentions HTML and programming in the same sentence.

> > Programming 
> > languages such as Python or Ruby are at a completely different level
> > than a text formatting language like HTML.
> 
> Can you back-up that claim about Python?  (^_^)  I agree that HTML is 
> not programming, but it (or maybe XML) would certainly get the OP a 
> foothold on the concept of dealing with the strict nature of a computer 
> language (assuming use of a validator) and even the concept of 
> cross-platform idiosyncrasies.  The next step would be CSS, server-side 
> includes, XSLT, and other transformations.  Add use of emacs or vim 
> plus apache administration for extra teeth-cutting bonus points.  
> Javascript?

True about the strictness and dealing certain browser's handling of HTML,
but that still isn't programming. A valuable lesson, but not programming.
Python is very much a programming language. One with a fairly high
level of abstraction (similar level as Java), but still a programming
language, not merely a formatting language.


As someone who regularly deals with *programming* languages, I find the
implicit comparsons that are done way too often, very insulting.


>From: Russell Senior <seniorr at aracnet.com>
> Zot O'Connor's initial fantasy for the AT talk was that it would be
> (or could be) somewhat contentious, and for some time it was billed
> that way.  I guess in contrast to the general meeting talk that ought
> to be polite (or something).  In my experience, having attended about
> 90% of the AT talks since their inception, they have never really been
> very contentious.  No one has ever even had a serious argument over
> emacs and vi.  I guess the vi weenies eventually realized their
> unmitigatable inferiority and gave up.  Emacs rules forever! ;-)

Nah, I've got enough other holy wars to fight without that one. I don't
need to tout the superiority of vi. I've been hoping someone would make
a Debian "anti-emacs" package that simply conflicted with every single
emacs package and ensured those could never in installed.

Been hoping for a similar thing for SQL. I'd prefer to avoid a full DB
on my *desktop* machine.


>From: Paul Heinlein <heinlein at madboa.com>
> Them, plus Debian users, anyone who uses an MTA other than sendmail or 
> an MUA other than pine, Java developers, and scads of other cowards!

I'll support the delivery of a small nuclear device to the Exim
developers. I wish they'd learn that making a program easy to configure,
but full of security holes and therefore needing a great deal of
maintenance is a great deal more of a pain than a harder to configure,
but secure and less often update program. Ugh, and Debian prefers Exim,
yuck! Particularly when they've got all these other MUAs with scripts
that make them similarly easy to configure.

Is Qmail worthy? For a small site at least?


>From: Paul Heinlein <heinlein at madboa.com>
> See, Russell? vi folks know their superiority and have no need for 
> discussing preferences with folks who need an entire operating system 
> just to edit text.
> 
> But mention Java ... then the fighters come out! :-)

Likely they do. In the end though, it is a tool, so what.


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