[PLUG-TALK] Chirac's shocker... Iraq.
Jeme A Brelin
jeme at brelin.net
Thu Dec 25 06:52:37 UTC 2003
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, alex wrote:
> I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I work and I pay taxes as my
> parents did to pay for the public education that everyone enjoys,
> including those that don't pay taxes. The same thing applies to the
> library and the public roads via more property taxes and gas taxes.
> Those that pay taxes enable all to use those facilities.
That's a big part of it, sure. But why the arbitrary distinction between
public education and food stamps? Would you feel differently if your kids
were in private schools? What if MOST people sent their children to
private schools, would you then advocate the abolition of public
education?
> Maybe we should just embrace your utopian idea of the world and give
> everyone everything they need for free. I think that would take care of
> all the pain and suffering, don't you?
I think that if people were nice enough to not keep people from things
they need, much of the world's pain and suffering would be alleviated.
See, it's not a lack of giving, it's keeping away that's the problem.
> > To answer your question(s), you should support them because you can't
> > tell them from people who would starve otherwise.
>
> Hence the restrictions.
Hello? I was commenting that restrictions cannot be devised that would
only stop the abusers and not hurt poor, hungry, desperate people.
The abusers are a very small minority and cost very little when compared
to the benefit of the programs generally.
> > Those kinds of restrictions end up hurting the people that need
> > assistance much more than they hurt those few that might abuse the
> > system.
>
> What would be the harm of putting a time limit on how long one can
> remain on public assistance? Make them better themselves and eliminate
> their burden on the rest of us.
[As an important aside, you should note and recall that you spend your
entire life on public assistance. It's called "civilization" and it comes
from thousands of years of human experience and cooperation developing a
system that allows you to do very little work to survive and to be greatly
enriched emotionally and intellectually without starting from square one
with each birth. The cost of civilization is more than just
participation. Mere participation doesn't counter-act the system's
entropy. To work against entropy, you must add order and generally
increase the levels of success of all of civilization.]
It's putting an expiration date on human a life. There is no time limit
that can encompass every person's situation. There are times and places
when any finite period is short of what is needed for that person to get
on their feet.
You seem to be under the impression that you are totally different from
everyone else in the world and you're the only one that wants to work and
be a productive person.
Do you really advocate letting people starve because they don't have what
you'd call an acceptable work ethic?
> > I believe that's what most everyone in the world is doing.
>
> Most are. It's those that live their entire life off the public that I'm
> concerned about.
I'm concerned about those people, too. I hope they can live the best
lives possible in their desperate situation.
But mostly, I'm concerned about the society that creates those situations.
> I don't support the killing of the poor in any manner. I support giving
> them the tools and the knowledge to improve themselves while they are on
> assistance so they can then get off the dole. Supporting generation
> after generation is not the answer.
Failing to support them is tatamount to killing them.
Hundreds of people die of hunger in this country every day.
What happens to those who can't or won't come around to your way of
thinking? Shall we just let them suffer and die?
> > Pride is the root of sin. I'm not a religious person, but it's pretty
> > clear to see how pride is just vanity and arrogance.
>
> So you've never shown pride in anything that you have done then? Must be
> nice to be Godlike!
I've never said I am flawless. I don't know where you got that
assumption. I just don't go around flaunting my sins and talking about
how other people should partake in them.
> > And your belief that most people don't also want to be productive and
> > do work shows how that pride has made you believe you are somehow
> > different and better than others.
>
> Boy, do you have that wrong. I know that I'm not better or different
> than others. I'm just an average person trying to get through to the
> next day. There's nothing special about that. I also know that most
> people are like that.
Then that's great... and you should recognize that nearly everybody on
public assistance is in that same boat. The possible edge cases are not
important here. We're trying to provide the greatest good, here.
No matter what rules you adopt, people will find ways to expoit them. If
your rules are just more restrictions, you're hurting the people that
follow the rules. The ones that would be likely to abuse the system
are going to find a way regardless.
J.
--
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Jeme A Brelin
jeme at brelin.net
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