Omniscience vs. Freewill (was Re: [PLUG-TALK] Re: PLUG-talk Digest, Vol 7, Issue 6)

[Russ Johnson]

glen e. p. ropella wrote:

>=><=><= "rj" == Russ Johnson <russj at dimstar.net> writes:
>  
>
>rj>  From that perspective, God sees our entire timeline. If we can alter 
>rj> the whole timeline that He sees, then we have freewill, and he isn't 
>rj> omniscient. If we have to follow the path he sees, then we don't have 
>rj> freewill.
>
>These three responses make me think I didn't do a good enough job
>of explaining (1).  Let me try again.  There is no "already" from
>God's perspective because "already" is a function of time.  There
>is no "altering" the timeline that He sees because change is a 
>function of time.  And, we don't "decide" what he sees.  He sees
>it all.
>  
>
That doesn't matter.

If he's seeing the whole lifetime (regardless of wether he's in or out 
of time), then my life is predetermined.  i.e. no freewill.

>Our decisions are also a function of time... At time, t_1 we haven't
>decided what to do and at t_2 we have.  But, from God's perspective,
>the state of the universe at times t_1 and t_2 are each just slices
>of the whole 22 dimensional space.
>
And if he "knows" both points, even at the same time, and regardless of 
time, then my decision is already cast in god, and I have no free will.

You've actually made it harder to have free will and believe in God.

>
>But, I repeat that I'm proposing this as a mechanism by which we can
>have freewill without limiting God's knowledge.  I'm not trying to
>_define_ freewill.  And since you didn't define it, either, this
>mechanism is sufficient to allow both freewill and God's omniscience.
>  
>
No, I believe you've simply made my point.

>rj> This takes us back to the "all possible realities exist at the same 
>rj> time" Star Trek story. Interesting theory, but I have a hard time 
>rj> grasping that, since I don't believe in alternate universes, or believe 
>rj> that some idiot version of myself could make decisions that would result 
>rj> in some of the possibilities I can think of.
>
>Uhhh, but just because you don't _believe_ it doesn't mean that it's
>false.
>
No, just as believing in Him doesn't cause Him to be.

>  So, as with (1), all I'm trying to do with (2) is show that
>you haven't shown a _logical_ contradiction between freewill and 
>God's omniscience, regardless of what you can grasp or believe.
>  
>
See above.

>Logically, if the multi-verse exists as envisioned by Wheeler, it 
>would allow freewill and God's omniscience to co-exist quite nicely.
>  
>
I don't believe it shows that at all.


-- 
Russ Johnson
Dimension 7/Stargate Online
http://www.dimstar.net

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Random thought #7 (Collect all 25)
"I am bigger than anything that can happen to me. All these things, sorrow, misfortune, and suffering, are outside my door. I am in the house, and I have the key." - Charles Fletcher Lummis