[PLUG-TALK] Credibility...

[Michael Robinson]

> Catholics often worship a man (in effigy).
> 
> Since they say that a man can be a God, they worship with the effigy.  
> *shrug*

No, you are wrong.  Catholics don't say that any man can be God.
You don't understand and accept the divinity of Jesus Christ as 
I have already stated.

> >  Follow
> > that logic, every human being becomes a graven image
> > because man is made in the image and likeness of God.
> > Please don't go there.
> 
> Well, I've already gone there, early Christians say it's heresy, and  
> you're not making any sense.

Where do early Christians claim that being made in the image and
likeness of God is a heresy?  They don't.  Martin Luther maybe
does, but Martin Luther was crazy.

> I suggest you study the first 300 years of Christianity.
> 
> No, really, take a few years. It helps to learn ancient greek.
>
> > A symbol representing
> > the 1 true God cannot be an idol, by definition.
> 
> Wrong, in early Judaism/christianity.
> 
> The "golden calf" represented God. It was wrong at times, right at  
> other times.

The golden calf did not represent the 1 true God because the followers
of Moses did things in it's name that God has never condoned.  If the
golden calf had represented God the Father or God the Holy Spirit the
story of the golden calf would not make sense.

> Quiz: Was "God's name", rather than a alternate choice, acceptable  
> for the YHVH/Elohim  groups 200 years ago?

The early Jews before Christ were afraid to speak the name of God.
Other ways to refer to Him were needed and developed.  I assume that
you meant 2000 years ago instead of 200.

> > You
> > don't worship a symbol, if it represents God you worship
> > the God person that it represents.
> 
> I do not disagree, as most buddhists do not worship some guy who  
> lived a long time ago.

> Many Christians, however, seem to worship some guy who lived a long  
> time ago.

Jesus Christ is still alive, what is your point?  He is in heaven
seated at the right hand of the Father.  Jesus Christ walked around
on the Earth in his glorified from after he was crucified.  Jesus
Christ is also present in every Catholic church in the world in
the form of bread and wine.  Those are NOT symbols by the way,
they are the real thing.

> > "You see, early Christians were kind of upset about the
> > idea of  worshipping god in the form of a man
> > (or other "earthly" things), as that was a Gentile,
> > pagan, custom. It wasn't until Arius's battle  with
> > Alexander of Alexandria, and the resulting Nicean
> > creed/heresy, that Christians decided to, well, kind
> > of ignore the issue, and  declare that worshipping a
> > man figure, *as* a part of God, was really  just
> > plain "ok"."
> >
> > Hmm, sounds like you don't believe in the divinity
> > of Jesus Christ.  The idea that Jesus is fully God
> > and fully man.  Am I correct?

> You didn't pick that part up about Arius, did you?
> 
> Do you have any idea about that history?

Well, I looked the Arian heresy up.

> > What in the Nicean creed is there that makes you
> > call it a heresy?
> 
> Worshipping a man, instead of his (Jesus as a man) worshipped god.
Come on, verse please.  You can do better than make a claim and not
point to the verse or verses you are basing it on.

Let's see :
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of
heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, eternally begotten from the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.  Through him all
things were made.  For us men and our salvation he came down from
heaven: by the Power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin
Mary, and became man."  

If you stop there, you don't get to the part about Jesus rising
from the dead.  No ordinary human being can rise from the dead
on his/her own.  Saying someone was crucified for your sake when
being crucified was an embarrassing thing in ancient times is 
highly significant.  There's the stanza, "We believe in one, 
holy, catholic, and apostolic church," that comes later on.  
Tear this apart, one means that there is one church of Christ, 
holy means to be different or set apart, catholic means 
universal, apostolic means that there is a line of succession 
all the way back to the apostles of Jesus.  

The Nicene Creed doesn't get into the Ascension of Jesus 
into heaven, but he did come back to life and ascend.  Oh, 
I'm sorry, it does: "...he ascended into heaven..."

> > You see, God impregnated Mary with the God-man Jesus
> > Christ which refutes the Arian heresy which says that
> > Jesus isn't God.
> 
> Even if if God "impregnated" Mary, Jesus still isn't God....., just  
> the product of impregnation by God.

Ah hem, saying that God can't impregnate a woman with God
inappropriately limits God.  Why are you doing this?  What
is your basis for doing this.  You haven't made an argument
at all.

> Zeus impregnated lots of maidens, that didn't make their offspring  
> "God".

Zeus isn't real and never was.  Zeus is out of Greek mythology.
Greek mythology doesn't even entertain monotheism.  Not only
does it not entertain monotheism, Greek mythology entertains
the notion that there are greater and lesser Gods who don't
particularly care about the human race.

> Same rules.

What do you mean?  The rules are very different for God than
they are for an ordinary man.  Or are you insisting that you 
know what God is capable of and what the rules are for Him?

> -Bop

Faith for someone who doesn't believe is unexplainable.
Faith for a believer needs no explanation.  Perhaps this
is why it is hard sometimes when you believe something 
to explain it to someone else, especially if they are 
closed minded.  I have responded on the assumption that 
there is something to work with, but chances are I'll get 
another, "you are stupid," "you are wrong," 
"you are mistaken," "you are a troll," etcetera response.  
Maybe I made a mistake offering a response, maybe not.  
If people continue to scream and holler and it looks like
there is nothing to work with, I won't respond again.

As far as the comment that what is happening on here is
good for my health, it is not.  My faith is solidly 
grounded, non racist, free of holes, etcetera.  People 
trying to attack it constantly where I can't win no 
matter what I say or do is unpleasant and it can make 
me severely depressed in time.  Depression is not a good
thing, which anybody who has been depressed knows well.
The problem is, people who agree with me will never
speak on here.  It has been said that you are never
accepted in your own community, maybe there's some truth
to that.