[PLUG-TALK] Spanish b
Denis Heidtmann
denis.heidtmann at gmail.com
Sun Nov 29 17:06:19 UTC 2020
got it.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 8:25 AM Denis Heidtmann <denis.heidtmann at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Great expansion. I will have to study it some more to be sure I
> understand. I wonder, John, did you say what you intended in the statement:
> "As a result it is not uncommon to encounter non-linguist native Spanish
> speakers who are aware that their voiced plosives fricate between vowels."
> If you did, I certainly need to study some more.
>
> -Denis
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:23 PM John Jason Jordan <johnxj at gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 18:56:44 -0800
>> Denis Heidtmann <denis.heidtmann at gmail.com> dijo:
>>
>> >For John,
>> >I sent your essay to an east coast friend. She responded:
>> >'Bill, who taught Spanish phonetics, disagrees with the idea that the
>> >Spanish don't notice the difference in the "b" sounds, because they
>> >observe the rules very well. It's a hard "b" at the beginning of an
>> >utterance after the period, but intervocalically it's the fricativa.
>> >Consonants are difficult for some learners, esp. the "d" and the "t,"
>> >because intervocalic "d" is pronounced softly like the "th" in "they."'
>> >
>> >I would have to reread your essay, but I did not think you said they
>> >do not notice the difference. If you would like to whip the horse
>> >some more, feel free.
>>
>> OK, here's the deal between 'phoneme' and 'allophone.' We refer to the
>> phoneme with (usually) the most common occurrence of the sound, and
>> 'allophones' refers to the main sound and all of its variations. So,
>> for example, English has both [t] and [tʰ], where [tʰ] is one of the
>> allophones of [t]. The [tʰ] occurs only when /t/ occurs alone at the
>> start of a syllable that has primary stress:
>>
>> table [tʰeɪbl̩]
>> stable [steɪbl̩]
>>
>> We tend to use / / to mark phonemes, and [ ] (in IPA) to denote an
>> allophone. In the above example, /t/ is the English phoneme, and its
>> allophones are [t] and [tʰ]. And more to the point, I doubt you will
>> find any native English speakers, save those with education in English
>> phonetics, who are aware that they aspirate [p, t, and k] when they
>> occur alone at the start of a stressed syllable. That's the deal with
>> phonemes and allophones - native speakers are generally unaware of the
>> difference.
>>
>> Now as to the Spanish /b/ and its allophones [b] and [β], many native
>> speakers have become aware of the difference because schools sometimes
>> teach the difference as they attempt to explain how to spell the
>> language. Your east coast friend points out something that I did not
>> explain thoroughly: The fricated [b, d, and ɡ] are very frequently
>> lenited to the point where they disappear, e.g., the phrase 'todo el
>> mundo' (everybody) comes out in ordinary speech as [toːl mundo] - the
>> [ð] allophone of /d/ disappeared. This happens so often that many
>> linguists refer to the fricated stops as approximants (semivowels). As
>> a result it is not uncommon to encounter non-linguist native Spanish
>> speakers who are aware that their voiced plosives fricate between
>> vowels.
>>
>> I have also encountered native speakers who claim that they can hear
>> the difference between [b] and [v]. If you say a words containing [b]
>> and [v] to these people, invariably they give you the correct letter.
>> But they do so because they have been taught the spelling - they
>> couldn't possibly be getting it from the pronunciation because there is
>> normally no difference.
>>
>> And having said that, there exist a few native speakers who actually
>> pronounce the /b/ and /v/ differently. Such pronunciation is an
>> affectation, even though they have probably forgotten when and how they
>> acquired it. Similarly, there are English speakers who pronounce the
>> 't' in 'often' and even 'listen,' even though it never existed even in
>> the early days of Anglo Saxon. People strive to be 'correct,' even when
>> doing so makes them look foolish to a linguist.
>>
>> You can find proof of my argument by going to Mexico and taking note of
>> hand made signs created by people who barely know how to read. You will
>> find frequent use of 'b' for 'v' and vice-versa.
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