From keithl at keithl.com Thu Jun 5 07:58:09 2025 From: keithl at keithl.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 00:58:09 -0700 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Cursing Robot at Oregon State University Message-ID: <20250605075809.GA14724@gate.kl-ic.com> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYdN5zLa07Q Conference paper here: https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.05831 The goal of this OSU C.S. project was to learn how HUMAN observers react to a robot that curses when it "makes a mistake". Most react with sympathy, unless the robot uses phrases like "g** damn it". That offends many ... and with that in mind, I use asterisks here. Keith L. -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From techkoenig at protonmail.com Thu Jun 19 19:16:01 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 19:16:01 +0000 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest Message-ID: Hi all, Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here since I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. As some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any of them. I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things are the way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather do it with someone else. I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. After talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the perfect match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how their IT infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. They've also been looking for 3 months. Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an email stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". However, I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to the IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other candidates competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden factor that they used to disqualify me. So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how to proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system is unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight unethical HR policies/practices? IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's life than those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. Anyone want to help?-Ben From plug at the-wes.com Thu Jun 19 23:09:56 2025 From: plug at the-wes.com (wes) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 16:09:56 -0700 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to discrimination laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since we get no feedback on where to focus our efforts. Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job postings but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There are a couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. Whether that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get cheaper labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we can't hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those internal political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company engaging in this sort of behavior. I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. -wes On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig wrote: > Hi all, > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here since > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. > As > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any > of them. > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things are > the > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather do > it with someone else. > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. > After > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the perfect > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how their > IT > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. They've > also been looking for 3 months. > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an > email > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > However, > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to the > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > candidates > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden > factor > that they used to disqualify me. > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how to > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system is > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > unethical HR policies/practices? > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's > life than > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > Anyone want > to help?-Ben > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > From techkoenig at protonmail.com Thu Jun 19 23:50:00 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 23:50:00 +0000 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, there's a whole host of problems. The deception stuff is almost entertaining in some situations. Every time Intel announces a layoff indeed.com fills up with fake ads for semiconductor techs. In one case the company name was just a string of numbers :D What really irks me is even when they are hiring, things fall apart. I hear a lot of excuses for why, but ultimately it hurts companies (and the economy) when your process for taking on new employees is broken. The only group that seems to benefit from this is HR and does it really make sense for that one corner of the company to dictate how business is done? Given that this is something the majority wants to change, I'm going to go ahead and start the ball rolling from a political perspective. Since nobody wants to hire me for tech stuff I might as well explore a career change into politics. Time to brainstorm some cute phrases to put on signs and see if people really do want to see this fixed. Maybe even create a superPAC! Dems can brag about their DEI efforts all they want but if they don't regulate HR then discrimination will keep happening. Basically, once you get past all the fake jobs you STILL run into problems with the Nazis working in HR. -Ben On Thursday, June 19th, 2025 at 4:10 PM, wes wrote: > I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to > discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to discrimination > laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The > fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since we get > no feedback on where to focus our efforts. > > Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all > before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job postings > but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There are a > couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. Whether > that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get cheaper > labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we can't > hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those internal > political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company > engaging in this sort of behavior. > > I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. > > -wes > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here since > > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. > > As > > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. > > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT > > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any > > of them. > > > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things are > > the > > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the > > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather do > > it with someone else. > > > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was > > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. > > After > > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the perfect > > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how their > > IT > > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. They've > > also been looking for 3 months. > > > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an > > email > > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > > However, > > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to the > > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > > candidates > > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden > > factor > > that they used to disqualify me. > > > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how to > > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system is > > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > > unethical HR policies/practices? > > > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's > > life than > > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > > Anyone want > > to help? > > > > -Ben > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:43:17 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 02:43:17 -0400 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking for job was, and is super frustrating. That is just a fact one has to accept. You should expect to send literally hundreds of taylor made resumes to get handful of responses. I count negative responses together with an interview offer as a response. I do not count boiler plate responses. Very few HR departmens review resumes by humans these days. You are essentially writing it for some sort of algorithm. Your resume must make sense to a human too, in the unlikely event that it is not filtered out by a machine. Internal politics is another filter. Someone may be simply trying to make the job go to a friend or get a firing bonus by recommending someone/anyone. Who knows... That is on the top of fake job post, job posts without req., abandoned posts, etc. It sucks, but suspecting discrimination/conspiracy would be one of the last reasons I would consider. In any case, protesting against HR or state of the affairs will not get you a job. :-( One way to get hired somewhere is to become a contractor through one of the decent agencies. Best luck, you will need it, Tomas On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 19:10 wes wrote: > I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to > discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to discrimination > laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The > fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since we get > no feedback on where to focus our efforts. > > Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all > before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job postings > but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There are a > couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. Whether > that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get cheaper > labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we can't > hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those internal > political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company > engaging in this sort of behavior. > > I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. > > -wes > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here > since > > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. > > As > > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. > > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT > > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any > > of them. > > > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things > are > > the > > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the > > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather > do > > it with someone else. > > > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was > > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. > > After > > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the > perfect > > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how > their > > IT > > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. > They've > > also been looking for 3 months. > > > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an > > email > > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > > However, > > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to > the > > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > > candidates > > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden > > factor > > that they used to disqualify me. > > > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how > to > > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system > is > > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > > unethical HR policies/practices? > > > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's > > life than > > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > > Anyone want > > to help?-Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > From techkoenig at protonmail.com Fri Jun 20 07:47:31 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 07:47:31 +0000 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think you understand the difference between a call to action and a call for advice. Much like you, a couple other morons here felt the urge to send me entire essays on this subject off the list. Trying to explain what is wrong with pretty much everything you just said is simply not an effective use of my time. If you really want to give "advice" maybe you should take a step back and try to understand the situation a little better. The same applies to those other two weenies. That kind of toxic, old-man arrogance is, in my opinion, a big part of why the process of finding a job complete garbage. -Ben On Thursday, June 19th, 2025 at 11:43 PM, Tomas Kuchta wrote: > Looking for job was, and is super frustrating. That is just a fact one has > to accept. > > You should expect to send literally hundreds of taylor made resumes to get > handful of responses. I count negative responses together with an interview > offer as a response. I do not count boiler plate responses. > > Very few HR departmens review resumes by humans these days. You are > essentially writing it for some sort of algorithm. Your resume must make > sense to a human too, in the unlikely event that it is not filtered out by > a machine. > > Internal politics is another filter. Someone may be simply trying to make > the job go to a friend or get a firing bonus by recommending > someone/anyone. Who knows... > > That is on the top of fake job post, job posts without req., abandoned > posts, etc. > > It sucks, but suspecting discrimination/conspiracy would be one of the last > reasons I would consider. In any case, protesting against HR or state of > the affairs will not get you a job. :-( > > One way to get hired somewhere is to become a contractor through one of the > decent agencies. > > Best luck, you will need it, > Tomas > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 19:10 wes plug at the-wes.com wrote: > > > I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to > > discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to discrimination > > laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The > > fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since we get > > no feedback on where to focus our efforts. > > > > Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all > > before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job postings > > but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There are a > > couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. Whether > > that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get cheaper > > labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we can't > > hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those internal > > political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company > > engaging in this sort of behavior. > > > > I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. > > > > -wes > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com > > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here > > > since > > > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. > > > As > > > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. > > > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT > > > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any > > > of them. > > > > > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things > > > are > > > the > > > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the > > > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather > > > do > > > it with someone else. > > > > > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was > > > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. > > > After > > > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the > > > perfect > > > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how > > > their > > > IT > > > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. > > > They've > > > also been looking for 3 months. > > > > > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an > > > email > > > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > > > However, > > > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to > > > the > > > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > > > candidates > > > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden > > > factor > > > that they used to disqualify me. > > > > > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how > > > to > > > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system > > > is > > > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > > > unethical HR policies/practices? > > > > > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's > > > life than > > > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > > > Anyone want > > > to help? > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 13:54:55 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 09:54:55 -0400 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you really think that you are the only one who has ever experienced this for months on end or even longer? My take away advice, in between lines, meant to be - think your actions through - however bad your situation is - You cannot protest/fight your way into an employment. Just my thought, -Tomas On Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 03:47 Ben Koenig wrote: > I don't think you understand the difference between a call to action > and a call for advice. > > Much like you, a couple other morons here felt the urge to send me entire > essays on > this subject off the list. Trying to explain what is wrong with pretty > much everything you just said is simply not an effective use of my time. > If you > really want to give "advice" maybe you should take a step back and try to > understand the situation a little better. > > The same applies to those other two weenies. That kind of toxic, old-man > arrogance is, > in my opinion, a big part of why the process of finding a job complete > garbage. > -Ben > > > On Thursday, June 19th, 2025 at 11:43 PM, Tomas Kuchta < > tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Looking for job was, and is super frustrating. That is just a fact one > has > > to accept. > > > > You should expect to send literally hundreds of taylor made resumes to > get > > handful of responses. I count negative responses together with an > interview > > offer as a response. I do not count boiler plate responses. > > > > Very few HR departmens review resumes by humans these days. You are > > essentially writing it for some sort of algorithm. Your resume must make > > sense to a human too, in the unlikely event that it is not filtered out > by > > a machine. > > > > Internal politics is another filter. Someone may be simply trying to make > > the job go to a friend or get a firing bonus by recommending > > someone/anyone. Who knows... > > > > That is on the top of fake job post, job posts without req., abandoned > > posts, etc. > > > > It sucks, but suspecting discrimination/conspiracy would be one of the > last > > reasons I would consider. In any case, protesting against HR or state of > > the affairs will not get you a job. :-( > > > > One way to get hired somewhere is to become a contractor through one of > the > > decent agencies. > > > > Best luck, you will need it, > > Tomas > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 19:10 wes plug at the-wes.com wrote: > > > > > I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to > > > discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to > discrimination > > > laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The > > > fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since > we get > > > no feedback on where to focus our efforts. > > > > > > Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all > > > before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job > postings > > > but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There > are a > > > couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. > Whether > > > that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get > cheaper > > > labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we > can't > > > hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those > internal > > > political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company > > > engaging in this sort of behavior. > > > > > > I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. > > > > > > -wes > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here > > > > since > > > > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went > nowhere. > > > > As > > > > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some > time. > > > > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech > Support/IT > > > > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get > any > > > > of them. > > > > > > > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why > things > > > > are > > > > the > > > > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself > in the > > > > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd > rather > > > > do > > > > it with someone else. > > > > > > > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) > that was > > > > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 > employees. > > > > After > > > > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the > > > > perfect > > > > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how > > > > their > > > > IT > > > > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. > > > > They've > > > > also been looking for 3 months. > > > > > > > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received > an > > > > email > > > > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > > > > However, > > > > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume > to > > > > the > > > > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > > > > candidates > > > > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some > hidden > > > > factor > > > > that they used to disqualify me. > > > > > > > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on > how > > > > to > > > > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal > system > > > > is > > > > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > > > > unethical HR policies/practices? > > > > > > > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a > person's > > > > life than > > > > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > > > > Anyone want > > > > to help? > > > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > From techkoenig at protonmail.com Fri Jun 20 14:29:52 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 14:29:52 +0000 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35Dop_9Z3YyhbCbRDh_vihOHcpQAI1rcnXf5SqEqURNWzAgffk0jLXFCl0HoCddZ429JzHRzTNHEDLgPriNO4bryM3wzZtD2njoLXWv0EAs=@protonmail.com> I did not solicit advice. Yet that's all you are offering. The level of arrogance people like you have to constantly talk down to me is amazing. I'm 34 you asshole. I've gone through this several times. I don't make accusations like this without cause. Something is different, and it means that your advice isn't relevant. I want to break them down so that advice such as yours becomes relevant again. -Ben On Friday, June 20th, 2025 at 6:55 AM, Tomas Kuchta wrote: > Do you really think that you are the only one who has ever experienced this > for months on end or even longer? > > My take away advice, in between lines, meant to be - think your actions > through - however bad your situation is - You cannot protest/fight your way > into an employment. > > Just my thought, > -Tomas > > On Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 03:47 Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com wrote: > > > I don't think you understand the difference between a call to action > > and a call for advice. > > > > Much like you, a couple other morons here felt the urge to send me entire > > essays on > > this subject off the list. Trying to explain what is wrong with pretty > > much everything you just said is simply not an effective use of my time. > > If you > > really want to give "advice" maybe you should take a step back and try to > > understand the situation a little better. > > > > The same applies to those other two weenies. That kind of toxic, old-man > > arrogance is, > > in my opinion, a big part of why the process of finding a job complete > > garbage. > > > > -Ben > > > > On Thursday, June 19th, 2025 at 11:43 PM, Tomas Kuchta < > > tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Looking for job was, and is super frustrating. That is just a fact one > > > has > > > to accept. > > > > > > You should expect to send literally hundreds of taylor made resumes to > > > get > > > handful of responses. I count negative responses together with an > > > interview > > > offer as a response. I do not count boiler plate responses. > > > > > > Very few HR departmens review resumes by humans these days. You are > > > essentially writing it for some sort of algorithm. Your resume must make > > > sense to a human too, in the unlikely event that it is not filtered out > > > by > > > a machine. > > > > > > Internal politics is another filter. Someone may be simply trying to make > > > the job go to a friend or get a firing bonus by recommending > > > someone/anyone. Who knows... > > > > > > That is on the top of fake job post, job posts without req., abandoned > > > posts, etc. > > > > > > It sucks, but suspecting discrimination/conspiracy would be one of the > > > last > > > reasons I would consider. In any case, protesting against HR or state of > > > the affairs will not get you a job. :-( > > > > > > One way to get hired somewhere is to become a contractor through one of > > > the > > > decent agencies. > > > > > > Best luck, you will need it, > > > Tomas > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 19:10 wes plug at the-wes.com wrote: > > > > > > > I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to > > > > discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to > > > > discrimination > > > > laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The > > > > fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since > > > > we get > > > > no feedback on where to focus our efforts. > > > > > > > > Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all > > > > before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job > > > > postings > > > > but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There > > > > are a > > > > couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. > > > > Whether > > > > that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get > > > > cheaper > > > > labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we > > > > can't > > > > hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those > > > > internal > > > > political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company > > > > engaging in this sort of behavior. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. > > > > > > > > -wes > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here > > > > > since > > > > > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went > > > > > nowhere. > > > > > As > > > > > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some > > > > > time. > > > > > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech > > > > > Support/IT > > > > > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get > > > > > any > > > > > of them. > > > > > > > > > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why > > > > > things > > > > > are > > > > > the > > > > > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself > > > > > in the > > > > > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd > > > > > rather > > > > > do > > > > > it with someone else. > > > > > > > > > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) > > > > > that was > > > > > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 > > > > > employees. > > > > > After > > > > > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the > > > > > perfect > > > > > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how > > > > > their > > > > > IT > > > > > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. > > > > > They've > > > > > also been looking for 3 months. > > > > > > > > > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received > > > > > an > > > > > email > > > > > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > > > > > However, > > > > > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume > > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > > > > > candidates > > > > > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some > > > > > hidden > > > > > factor > > > > > that they used to disqualify me. > > > > > > > > > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on > > > > > how > > > > > to > > > > > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal > > > > > system > > > > > is > > > > > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > > > > > unethical HR policies/practices? > > > > > > > > > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a > > > > > person's > > > > > life than > > > > > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > > > > > Anyone want > > > > > to help? > > > > > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk From rpowell at lucidheart.com Fri Jun 20 20:34:28 2025 From: rpowell at lucidheart.com (Ash Powell) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 13:34:28 -0700 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4fa82370-ffcf-42de-a02b-9b27b63ae93d@lucidheart.com> I actually had started composing a response to your original call to action, but clicked delete before sending.? I correctly intuited you might have this very reaction.? I have now decided to reply. On 6/20/2025 12:47 AM, Ben Koenig wrote: > I don't think you understand the difference between a call to action > and a call for advice. For the record. I don't believe you have provided sufficient information to warrant responding to your call for action.? Which is probably why you received some advice, or some insight into the perception from other people. I'm not offering advice. However, I am hoping to provide insight. I have owned multiple businesses over the years. I have been a hiring manager for an even longer period of time. And lastly, I've been where you are, failing to get hired, and not understanding why, and feeling frustrated and even angry. I've also witnessed, first hand, people actually discriminating against others. In those cases where I've seen it first hand, there was evidence. I knew, without a doubt, there was discrimination happening. And in those cases, that's where there was power to do something about it. Power in speaking out about it. From your original post, I didn't see any evidence, other than your claim, or suspicion that it was happening. And that it was "hidden". Without evidence, there's not much to be done about it. I'm not saying discrimination didn't exist/happen. Only that I haven't seen any evidence. I will point something out though. You have very publicly called multiple people on this list "weenies", "morons", "arrogant", and "old men". That evidence does exist. In a company where positive culture is important, these sorts of personal attacks would throw you right down to the bottom of the hiring list. And, quite honestly, would probably remove you from the hiring pool entirely.? And there would be absolutely no obligation for a potential employer to explain that decision to you. Being angry and frustrated is perfectly human, and okay. Name calling on a public list may not be a good approach while job seeking.? Ooops, Sorry, I just gave some advice.? Hopefully you don't also feel that I'm a weenie, moron, arrogant or old.? :-) Ash > > > > Much like you, a couple other morons here felt the urge to send me entire essays on > this subject off the list. Trying to explain what is wrong with pretty > much everything you just said is simply not an effective use of my time. If you > really want to give "advice" maybe you should take a step back and try to > understand the situation a little better. > > The same applies to those other two weenies. That kind of toxic, old-man arrogance is, > in my opinion, a big part of why the process of finding a job complete garbage. > -Ben > > > On Thursday, June 19th, 2025 at 11:43 PM, Tomas Kuchta wrote: > >> Looking for job was, and is super frustrating. That is just a fact one has >> to accept. >> >> You should expect to send literally hundreds of taylor made resumes to get >> handful of responses. I count negative responses together with an interview >> offer as a response. I do not count boiler plate responses. >> >> Very few HR departmens review resumes by humans these days. You are >> essentially writing it for some sort of algorithm. Your resume must make >> sense to a human too, in the unlikely event that it is not filtered out by >> a machine. >> >> Internal politics is another filter. Someone may be simply trying to make >> the job go to a friend or get a firing bonus by recommending >> someone/anyone. Who knows... >> >> That is on the top of fake job post, job posts without req., abandoned >> posts, etc. >> >> It sucks, but suspecting discrimination/conspiracy would be one of the last >> reasons I would consider. In any case, protesting against HR or state of >> the affairs will not get you a job. :-( >> >> One way to get hired somewhere is to become a contractor through one of the >> decent agencies. >> >> Best luck, you will need it, >> Tomas >> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 19:10 wes plug at the-wes.com wrote: >> >>> I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to >>> discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to discrimination >>> laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The >>> fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since we get >>> no feedback on where to focus our efforts. >>> >>> Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all >>> before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job postings >>> but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There are a >>> couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. Whether >>> that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get cheaper >>> labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we can't >>> hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those internal >>> political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company >>> engaging in this sort of behavior. >>> >>> I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. >>> >>> -wes >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here >>>> since >>>> I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. >>>> As >>>> some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. >>>> Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT >>>> industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any >>>> of them. >>>> >>>> I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things >>>> are >>>> the >>>> way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the >>>> middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather >>>> do >>>> it with someone else. >>>> >>>> I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was >>>> having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. >>>> After >>>> talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the >>>> perfect >>>> match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how >>>> their >>>> IT >>>> infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. >>>> They've >>>> also been looking for 3 months. >>>> >>>> Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an >>>> email >>>> stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". >>>> However, >>>> I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to >>>> the >>>> IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other >>>> candidates >>>> competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden >>>> factor >>>> that they used to disqualify me. >>>> >>>> So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how >>>> to >>>> proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system >>>> is >>>> unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight >>>> unethical HR policies/practices? >>>> >>>> IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's >>>> life than >>>> those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. >>>> Anyone want >>>> to help? >>>> >>>> -Ben >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org >>>> PLUG-talk mailing list >>>> PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org >>>> https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org >>> PLUG-talk mailing list >>> PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org >>> https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk >> _______________________________________________ >> PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org >> PLUG-talk mailing list >> PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org >> https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk From techkoenig at protonmail.com Fri Jun 20 21:51:00 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 21:51:00 +0000 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Employment Discrimination Resources and Potential Protest In-Reply-To: <4fa82370-ffcf-42de-a02b-9b27b63ae93d@lucidheart.com> References: <4fa82370-ffcf-42de-a02b-9b27b63ae93d@lucidheart.com> Message-ID: That's a much more reasonable response. Generally speaking, it's a good idea to respond to what people say instead of talking past it as others here did. You also demonstrated what others here could not by acknowledging gaps in what you see from the original post. I don't think that any of the messaging in this post will impact my chances of getting hired one way or the other. If I did, I likely wouldn't have posted it. Some combination of my particular skill set and work history has already disqualified me. I haven't yet shared my reasons for that because nobody has shown an interest. Maybe some of those insults were out of line. I received some pretty toxic nonsense off-list and responded poorly. I wasn't confident that people here would respond to polite refutation given the incredibly arrogant nature of their advice. To quote Keith L. : "...Asperger spectrum geeks like us..." That is offensive. As a retired individual I suppose he doesn't need to watch what he says anymore. Unfortunately I've noticed that people like him don't respond to regular complaints. Tomas, Rich, and Keith are more than welcome to take a step back and consider how others might perceive their words. I don't believe they will, but if they prove me wrong I have no problem eating my own words. As for the actual topic. I'm well aware of the standard insights and advice. What I'm saying is that something appears to have dramatically changed in the last couple years. As such, your advice is not as relevant anymore. Care to comment on that? This is a discussion forum. If you want to discuss, then let's discuss. Ask for more info or maybe even actual evidence. But jumping straight to paragraphs of advice based on a single message is quite literally the definition of "arrogant". FWIW I need a job to pay for medical procedures I have no choice but to leave the tech world. Not a huge loss since FOSS allows me to seek opportunities without a normal employer. My resting heart rate is typically over 100BPM. Combine this with allergy season I currently have a near constant tremor. People view my tremor as anxiety or mental illness and immediately disqualify. It affects my voice over the phone and my ability to interview. I can't adapt for that and like some of you have said, I can't prove that was the disqualifying factor. How does your advice address that problem? -Ben On Friday, June 20th, 2025 at 1:34 PM, Ash Powell wrote: > I actually had started composing a response to your original call to > action, but clicked delete before sending. I correctly intuited you > might have this very reaction. I have now decided to reply. > > On 6/20/2025 12:47 AM, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > I don't think you understand the difference between a call to action > > and a call for advice. > > > For the record. I don't believe you have provided sufficient information > to warrant responding to your call for action. Which is probably why > you received some advice, or some insight into the perception from other > people. > > I'm not offering advice. However, I am hoping to provide insight. > > I have owned multiple businesses over the years. I have been a hiring > manager for an even longer period of time. And lastly, I've been where > you are, failing to get hired, and not understanding why, and feeling > frustrated and even angry. I've also witnessed, first hand, people > actually discriminating against others. In those cases where I've seen > it first hand, there was evidence. I knew, without a doubt, there was > discrimination happening. And in those cases, that's where there was > power to do something about it. Power in speaking out about it. > > From your original post, I didn't see any evidence, other than your > claim, or suspicion that it was happening. And that it was "hidden". > Without evidence, there's not much to be done about it. I'm not saying > discrimination didn't exist/happen. Only that I haven't seen any evidence. > > I will point something out though. You have very publicly called > multiple people on this list "weenies", "morons", "arrogant", and "old > men". That evidence does exist. > > In a company where positive culture is important, these sorts of > personal attacks would throw you right down to the bottom of the hiring > list. And, quite honestly, would probably remove you from the hiring > pool entirely. And there would be absolutely no obligation for a > potential employer to explain that decision to you. > > Being angry and frustrated is perfectly human, and okay. Name calling on > a public list may not be a good approach while job seeking. Ooops, > Sorry, I just gave some advice. Hopefully you don't also feel that I'm > a weenie, moron, arrogant or old. :-) > > Ash > > > Much like you, a couple other morons here felt the urge to send me entire essays on > > this subject off the list. Trying to explain what is wrong with pretty > > much everything you just said is simply not an effective use of my time. If you > > really want to give "advice" maybe you should take a step back and try to > > understand the situation a little better. > > > > The same applies to those other two weenies. That kind of toxic, old-man arrogance is, > > in my opinion, a big part of why the process of finding a job complete garbage. > > > > -Ben > > > > On Thursday, June 19th, 2025 at 11:43 PM, Tomas Kuchta tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > Looking for job was, and is super frustrating. That is just a fact one has > > > to accept. > > > > > > You should expect to send literally hundreds of taylor made resumes to get > > > handful of responses. I count negative responses together with an interview > > > offer as a response. I do not count boiler plate responses. > > > > > > Very few HR departmens review resumes by humans these days. You are > > > essentially writing it for some sort of algorithm. Your resume must make > > > sense to a human too, in the unlikely event that it is not filtered out by > > > a machine. > > > > > > Internal politics is another filter. Someone may be simply trying to make > > > the job go to a friend or get a firing bonus by recommending > > > someone/anyone. Who knows... > > > > > > That is on the top of fake job post, job posts without req., abandoned > > > posts, etc. > > > > > > It sucks, but suspecting discrimination/conspiracy would be one of the last > > > reasons I would consider. In any case, protesting against HR or state of > > > the affairs will not get you a job. :-( > > > > > > One way to get hired somewhere is to become a contractor through one of the > > > decent agencies. > > > > > > Best luck, you will need it, > > > Tomas > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 19:10 wes plug at the-wes.com wrote: > > > > > > > I feel that pain. I lost my last job (which I had for 5 years) due to > > > > discrimination. Unfortunately employers have responded to discrimination > > > > laws by never revealing the true reason for any decision they make. The > > > > fallout from this is that we all lose opportunities to improve since we get > > > > no feedback on where to focus our efforts. > > > > > > > > Also, I would remind you ("remind" since I'm sure you've heard this all > > > > before) that the job market is fraught with deception. Lots of job postings > > > > but relatively few of them are actually interested in hiring. There are a > > > > couple of reasons they do this, mostly boiling down to politics. Whether > > > > that's governmental politics (need to justify an H1B visa to get cheaper > > > > labor) or internal politics (can't meet team requirements because we can't > > > > hire enough people to fill it)... it just sucks all around. Those internal > > > > political reasons may be opaque even to current employees of a company > > > > engaging in this sort of behavior. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't know where to begin if I needed to find a new job today. > > > > > > > > -wes > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 12:16?PM Ben Koenig techkoenig at protonmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > Definitely sending this into the off-topic list. Thought I'd ask here > > > > > since > > > > > I've now had 2 job references from fellow PLUG members that went nowhere. > > > > > As > > > > > some of you know, I've been looking for stable employment for some time. > > > > > Contrary to what the Fake News is reporting about AI, the Tech Support/IT > > > > > industry still has an abundance of jobs and yet I seem unable to get any > > > > > of them. > > > > > > > > > > I'm a problem solver. I don't sit around making excuses for why things > > > > > are > > > > > the > > > > > way they are. If I have to put together a sign and stand by myself in the > > > > > middle of Pioneer Square protesting against HR, I will do it. I'd rather > > > > > do > > > > > it with someone else. > > > > > > > > > > I recently applied at a local company (so not a big corporation) that was > > > > > having difficulty hiring an IT Help Desk tech for their ~150 employees. > > > > > After > > > > > talking with a PLUG member who is employed there it seemed like the > > > > > perfect > > > > > match. Not a lot of other candidates, and the specific nature of how > > > > > their > > > > > IT > > > > > infrastructure is set up was perfect for someone with my expertise. > > > > > They've > > > > > also been looking for 3 months. > > > > > > > > > > Of course, I did not get the job. Why is unknown, I simply received an > > > > > email > > > > > stating that they decided "not to move forward with my application". > > > > > However, > > > > > I know that at one point their HR team refused to release my resume to > > > > > the > > > > > IT manager. I also know that they did not have an abundance of other > > > > > candidates > > > > > competing with me. This is obvious discrimination - There is some hidden > > > > > factor > > > > > that they used to disqualify me. > > > > > > > > > > So my Question for the PLUG group is this: Anyone have any advice on how > > > > > to > > > > > proceed with legal action against this company? Or, if the legal system > > > > > is > > > > > unresponsive, any thoughts on staging a protest to fight > > > > > unethical HR policies/practices? > > > > > > > > > > IMO protesting against HR is more impactful and relevant to a person's > > > > > life than > > > > > those "no kings" events. It's also a relatively easy problem to fix. > > > > > Anyone want > > > > > to help? > > > > > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > > PLUG-talk mailing list > > > > > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > > > > > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk From keithl at keithl.com Sat Jun 21 09:06:46 2025 From: keithl at keithl.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 02:06:46 -0700 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] reading memory card from baked Macbook Air A1466 Message-ID: <20250621090646.GA2474@gate.kl-ic.com> The widow of a friend hopes to extract some of the data from a LITERALLY BAKED Macbook Air laptop, about 10 years old. The 128 GB solid state flash memory card is covered with non-conductive crud, but the 12/16 rows of board edge connector are still shiny and intact. It is vaguely possible that the electronics on the card still work and the memory cells still function and error- correct after their hours-long trip through hell. A similar vintage Macbook might still read most of the card, but I doubt the machine would boot, and if it did, the passwords probably died with the owner. On the other hand, recovering much of the user data would be a BODACIOUS hack, worth many pints at a Mac convention. Also a lifetime supply of Florida citrus (the widow is a top scientist at a USDA research lab near Tampa). Plus the INCREDIBLY crisped laptop itself - the carbonized keys left a "negative image" on the peeling screen. My friend was a research scientist, and his laptop got wet while wading through a swamp. He decided to dry it out in the kitchen oven, but fell asleep. Hours later, the smoke alarm woke him. A significant portion of the MacBook Air became a black cloud in the air, and more became a thick black coating of carbon crud over the main circuit board. The four ruptured batteries added to the chemical mess. For the genius who recovers the data, a wonderful collector's item to give to friends who either dislike Apple, or have a LITERALLY warped sense of humor. Keith L. P.S. MacOS is a BSD Unix derivative, so this qualifies as a topic for the portland linux UNIX group. However, I won't post this to the main PLUG list, because I might be flamed. P.P.S. As a bonus, a clipping from the May 29, 2019 Wall Street Journal, "Apple Changes MacBook Keyboard After Complaints". This MacBook probably has the most changed keyboard ever, crisped to cinders and carbon dioxide. -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org Sat Jun 21 23:49:48 2025 From: kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org (King Beowulf) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:49:48 +0000 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] reading memory card from baked Macbook Air A1466 In-Reply-To: <20250621090646.GA2474@gate.kl-ic.com> References: <20250621090646.GA2474@gate.kl-ic.com> Message-ID: On 6/21/25 02:06, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > The 128 GB solid state flash memory card is covered with > non-conductive crud, but the 12/16 rows of board edge > connector are still shiny and intact. > > It is vaguely possible that the electronics on the card > still work and the memory cells still function and error- > correct after their hours-long trip through hell. A similar > vintage Macbook might still read most of the card, but I > doubt the machine would boot, and if it did, the passwords > probably died with the owner. Keith, If its an M.2/NVMe PCIe SSD (as on the spec. sheet), you can get a NVMe USB enclosure and see if it mounts on a iMac, Macbook (air, pro whatever). Easier to test in the Apple ecosystem that try to find the right file system modules for Linux. I very much doubt it will mount, but if it does, AND if the drive wasn't encrypted, you MIGHT be able to get some files off it. Given the damage, I the fact that there are no miracles in Science, that data is "toast". -Ed From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Sun Jun 29 20:16:37 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 13:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PLUG-TALK] LibreOffice Calc export database Message-ID: <215d4088-d8a8-e058-47ce-4eb777b624b@appl-ecosys.com> I've not before noticed that LO's Calc can export a spreadsheet to dBASE (.dbf) format. Haven't seen that since the late 1980s. Wonder how many companies are still using dBASE. Rich From keithl at keithl.com Sun Jun 29 22:27:46 2025 From: keithl at keithl.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 15:27:46 -0700 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Ancient 3.5 inch 1.44MB floppies, new in box Message-ID: <20250629222746.GA21564@gate.kl-ic.com> While cleaning up my Beaverton garage/storage/workshop, I found a box of unused 1.44MB floppy disks. Does anyone want them? Otherwise, who recycles them? Keith L. -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From refugia at zoho.com Sun Jun 29 22:57:49 2025 From: refugia at zoho.com (Patrick O'Connor) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 15:57:49 -0700 Subject: [PLUG-TALK] =?utf-8?q?Ancient_3=2E5_inch_1=2E44MB_floppies=2C_ne?= =?utf-8?q?w_in_box?= In-Reply-To: <20250629222746.GA21564@gate.kl-ic.com> References: <20250629222746.GA21564@gate.kl-ic.com> Message-ID: <197bde93f67.b4b5da01104137.2174669268309972096@zoho.com> https://www.floppydisk.com/ ---- On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 15:27:46 -0700 keithl at keithl.com wrote ---- > While cleaning up my Beaverton garage/storage/workshop, > I found a box of unused 1.44MB floppy disks. > Does anyone want them? Otherwise, who recycles them? > > Keith L. > > -- > Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com[mailto:keithl at keithl.com] > _______________________________________________ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org[https://pdxlinux.org] > PLUG-talk mailing list > PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org[mailto:PLUG-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org] > https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk[https://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-talk]