[PLUG-TALK] Heat pump opinions, installers?

Tue Feb 3 12:56:45 UTC 2026

Keith,

Don't believe what you read out of the AI bots.

Old R22 needs to be recovered and sold to a freon refiner with a recovery
machine, and none of the refineries will pay you anything until after they
have run it through a gas centrifuge and separated out the real stuff from
the air and oil and other trash in there.

"Brand new" R22 from a refiner is around $280 for a 30 pound jug;

https://refrigerationgo.com/products/r22-freon-refrigerant

I suspect you will be lucky to get $10-20 a pound for yours.   And you will
need to buy a Freon recovery machine to get it.  Remember that old Freon is
a liability to HVAC installers, they have an unlimited supply of it -
legally they are not allowed to release it to the atmosphere - so even if
they had to pay to get rid of it - they would gladly pay to get rid of it.

3-5 years ago, recycled Freon was a lot more expensive.  But the price has
crashed.

What is driving it is the replacement refrigerant R407C

https://refrigerationgo.com/products/r407c-freon-refrigerant

An AC system is very simple.  Plumbing and a heat exchanger.  The heart is
the compressor and if that goes then any installer can buy a replacement and
braze it in, vacuum the system, and Bob's your uncle.  The reality is that
the 90% efficient gas furnace is much more complicated and trouble-prone.

If you have an AC system and the compressor fails you are looking at around
$1200 for a compressor replacement.  And at that time if the tech does it
right they will recover the Freon, then remove the compressor and then run
mineral spirits through the hard lines then compressed air to dry them out
and remove all the oil, then braze the new compressor in and then vacuum the
system out and refill with R407C and new PAG oil not the older mineral oil
that the R22 system used.

I myself have a 90% efficient condensing gas furnace and an R22 A/C system
and leaks don't scare me.  With the amount of use that system gets - 3
months out of a year - there's no way that even though the system is nearly
30 years old, that I'm going to replace it until it fails by itself.

The longer you can delay the purchase of a heat pump the better.  This
technology is still evolving pretty rapidly and there are significant
improvements every year and more years it takes to work through all the
kinks.

Truthfully, the 90% gas furnace, even though it's more complex, is a much
more proven design although it has inherent end of lifes built into it  (I
would have far rather bought an 80% furnace but the original chimney of the
house was demolished and the 90% design vents via PVC).  Over the years the
stainless steel heat exchanger has become standard, redesigns to keep the
water from pooling in the heat exchanger have been made, as well as material
thickness has been optimized.

With my furnace if and when the heat exchanger dies there was a class action
lawsuit a few years ago that guarantees Carrier will supply a new heat
exchanger free of charge you just have to pay the labor to replace it.  I've
already replaced the inducer ($500 to a service guy) and I replaced the
blower motor myself (it's an easy repair) as well as ignitor.  One of these
days the heat exchanger will die of course but I'll probably replace it.
Interestingly, the inducer MOTOR didn't die it was the plastic fan inside of
it that broke due to age-embrittlement.

The heart of a condensing furnace is the heat exchanger and as long as
that's available for your model it's generally worth repairing instead of
replacing even though your going to have other failures over the lifetime
such as the blower/inducer/etc. none of which are that expensive.  Of
course, furnace companies prefer to sell a brand new furnace instead of the
parts, but either way your going to pay the same amount - you will pay it
all at once or pay it over 20-30 years time to replace components.  So if
you have the money the complete furnace replacement does allow you to get a
warranty.

But Acs are different, I'll laugh all the way to the bank buying Freon
cheaply from guys like you operating off old junk you read online for
another 20 years.

It's only if the AC dies AND the furnace is still operating on the original
heat exchanger that it's really worth contemplating a heat pump IMHO.
Otherwise, these devices are repairable and not that difficult to do.

If you have the money I think the economics of it dictate a better return
spending the money on more solar panels and more battery storage than a heat
pump - assuming you have panel space, that is.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: PLUG-talk <plug-talk-bounces at lists.pdxlinux.org> On Behalf Of Keith
Lofstrom
Sent: Monday, February 2, 2026 9:54 PM
To: plug-talk at lists.pdxlinux.org
Subject: [PLUG-TALK] Heat pump opinions, installers?

Anyone have recommendations for heat pumps brands and westside Portland
installers?  Our gas furnace and air conditioner still work, but a heat pump
and solar panels can be more cost effective, averaged over many years. 

----

The decades-old coolant in our air conditioner is no longer legal to
manufacture, but it can be extracted and resold to others (legally) for a
surprising amount of money.

Perhaps because some specialized $$$$$$ scientific or manufacturing
equipment still uses the same coolant. 

I doubt that the coolant will pay for much of the replumb, but I hope to
extract it for recycling before the coolant plumbing springs a leak, and I
need to replace the system anyway.

Keith L.

P.S.  Note also that PGE power includes a surprising fraction of solar and
wind, in addition to hydro and natural gas.  And they pay a feed-in tariff
for large home solar systems.  While that intermittent power thrashes grid
capacity somewhat, the hydro dams and impoundments on the Columbia are
spaced and "tuned"
to accommodate thrashing daily base load. 

P.P.S.  Maybe the less-agile fish that can't manage fish ladders around dams
are dying for a Good Cause. 
Evolution In Action, as my frenemy Jerry Pournelle labelled terminally
stupid behavior.  

P.P.P.S.  Capitalized "Good Causes" are often Not.

P.P.P.P.S.  Top quoting entire emails is a Not Good Cause.
Please extract just the lines you are kvetching about, and file the rest on
/dev/null.
-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com
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