From russell at pdxlinux.org Mon Dec 1 06:13:10 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2025 22:13:10 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] REMINDER: Portland Linux/Unix Group General Meeting: Plan 9, with Anthony Sorace In-Reply-To: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: <606beaec-958a-4ed9-80c2-21a979c3f8ae@pdxlinux.org> Just a reminder, coming up this week! On 11/15/25 01:28, Russell Senior wrote: > Who: Anthony Sorace > What: Plan 9 > Where: 1930 SW 4th Avenue, Portland, Oregon 97201-5304, Room 86-01 > When: Thursday December 4, 2025 at 7 PM > Why: The pursuit of technology freedom > > > Summary: > > Plan 9 is an operating system with some very interesting properties, > especially around distributed systems, networking, and resource > sharing. It was originally developed by the same group at Bell Labs > which developed Unix and shares a clear heritage that will make many > parts familiar to experienced users of other unix-like systems, but in > many ways represents an "alternate universe" for how Unix might have > developed. While it's seen only limited commercial use, it has proven > itself suitable to a wide range of applications, including > supercomputer clusters, network appliances, and embedded systems. And > as a small, consistent system with a unifying philosophy, it can be > interesting to study and explore even outside its practical utility. > > Together, let's take a brief tour of this alternate universe's > history, what makes it exciting to people who live (or visit) there, > the current landscape, and where it might (or might not!) be > interesting for you. > > Bio: > > Anthony Sorace (he/him) is some sort of engineer. Professionally, his > work has focused on system architecture and process analysis, looking > at how people can use computers to solve (some of) their problems. On > the side, he enjoys messing about with networking, databases, and > systems software. He is a slightly reluctant web programmer and > enthusiastic cook. He has been using Plan 9 since the late nineteen > hundreds, a few weeks before starting a job at Bell Labs working with > related technology, and currently serves as a director of the Plan 9 > Foundation, a non-profit dedicated to advancing research on > lightweight distributed systems using these technologies. > > Calagator: https://calagator.org/events/1250482315 > > With luck, the talk will also be streamed live here: > http://www.twitch.tv/kngbwlf, and later posted to YouTube. > > PLUG is back at Portland State University, thanks to the Computer > Science Department and to Andrew Greenberg. The room is in the > basement of the PSU Engineering Building (also connected underground > to the Fourth Avenue Building, or FAB). Enter through the Engineering > Building. The outside door will be locked, but there should be someone > present at the entrance to let you in starting at 6:40pm until 7pm. > There will be a sign on the door with a phone number you can SMS if > there isn't someone there to let you in immediately. > > From russell at pdxlinux.org Wed Dec 3 23:43:45 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 15:43:45 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Charles Jordan Community Center Computer Lab Message-ID: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> A few months ago in mid-September, I happened to notice that Portland Parks and Recreation website said that they had a community center with a computer lab. That was the first I had ever heard of it. With a little more research, I found that they'd received an equipment grant in 2012 from Free Geek, running Ubuntu, to expand some previously existing computer lab. I wondered, given the current state of Free Geek, what the condition of the computer lab was and made a mental note to stop by some day, wondering whether PLUG might help support it. ? https://www.portland.gov/parks/charles-jordan-community-center (listed under amenities on the right side) Today while I was in the neighborhood, I stopped by to ask about it and to suggest that PLUG might be able to help them. However, the nice person I talked to said words to the effect: "Oh, that hasn't been around for years, since before the pandemic". I told him I'd seen it on their website recently and suggested they should probably remove that mention if it didn't really exist, and they expressed some surprise. I came home, found the link I'd seen before, confirmed it looked like the current site, and then left a voicemail with more detail about where I had seen it, so by the time you read this it might already be gone. So, oops. I guess the City of Portland has zero computer labs, instead of just one. -- Russell Senior PLUG Volunteer russell at pdxlinux.org From barnmichael at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 00:10:49 2025 From: barnmichael at gmail.com (Michael Barnes) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 16:10:49 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Charles Jordan Community Center Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> References: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: So everybody should drop in and ask to use the Computer Lab. Then tell them you're not paying an admission fee if there is no computer lab and walk out. Tell them the website says they have one. Be sure they see your disappointment. Michael On Wed, Dec 3, 2025 at 3:44?PM Russell Senior wrote: > A few months ago in mid-September, I happened to notice that Portland > Parks and Recreation website said that they had a community center with > a computer lab. That was the first I had ever heard of it. With a little > more research, I found that they'd received an equipment grant in 2012 > from Free Geek, running Ubuntu, to expand some previously existing > computer lab. I wondered, given the current state of Free Geek, what the > condition of the computer lab was and made a mental note to stop by some > day, wondering whether PLUG might help support it. > > https://www.portland.gov/parks/charles-jordan-community-center > (listed under amenities on the right side) > > Today while I was in the neighborhood, I stopped by to ask about it and > to suggest that PLUG might be able to help them. However, the nice > person I talked to said words to the effect: "Oh, that hasn't been > around for years, since before the pandemic". I told him I'd seen it on > their website recently and suggested they should probably remove that > mention if it didn't really exist, and they expressed some surprise. I > came home, found the link I'd seen before, confirmed it looked like the > current site, and then left a voicemail with more detail about where I > had seen it, so by the time you read this it might already be gone. > > So, oops. I guess the City of Portland has zero computer labs, instead > of just one. > > -- > Russell Senior > PLUG Volunteer > russell at pdxlinux.org > From refugia at zoho.com Thu Dec 4 02:31:05 2025 From: refugia at zoho.com (Patrick O'Connor) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2025 18:31:05 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Charles Jordan Community Center Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: <19ae732ed92.6cac2df9434475.4353065292843167045@zoho.com> It is located on Foss avenue. A linux lab would be apt. Do you want me to inquire? I work for portland parks & wrecks. That's in our zone. Patrick ---- On Wed, 03 Dec 2025 16:10:49 -0800 Michael Barnes wrote --- > So everybody should drop in and ask to use the Computer Lab. Then tell them > you're not paying an admission fee if there is no computer lab and walk > out. Tell them the website says they have one. Be sure they see your > disappointment. > > Michael > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2025 at 3:44?PM Russell Senior wrote: > > > A few months ago in mid-September, I happened to notice that Portland > > Parks and Recreation website said that they had a community center with > > a computer lab. That was the first I had ever heard of it. With a little > > more research, I found that they'd received an equipment grant in 2012 > > from Free Geek, running Ubuntu, to expand some previously existing > > computer lab. I wondered, given the current state of Free Geek, what the > > condition of the computer lab was and made a mental note to stop by some > > day, wondering whether PLUG might help support it. > > > > https://www.portland.gov/parks/charles-jordan-community-center > > (listed under amenities on the right side) > > > > Today while I was in the neighborhood, I stopped by to ask about it and > > to suggest that PLUG might be able to help them. However, the nice > > person I talked to said words to the effect: "Oh, that hasn't been > > around for years, since before the pandemic". I told him I'd seen it on > > their website recently and suggested they should probably remove that > > mention if it didn't really exist, and they expressed some surprise. I > > came home, found the link I'd seen before, confirmed it looked like the > > current site, and then left a voicemail with more detail about where I > > had seen it, so by the time you read this it might already be gone. > > > > So, oops. I guess the City of Portland has zero computer labs, instead > > of just one. > > > > -- > > Russell Senior > > PLUG Volunteer > > russell at pdxlinux.org > > > From kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org Thu Dec 4 02:37:59 2025 From: kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org (King Beowulf) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2025 02:37:59 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] Charles Jordan Community Center Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> References: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: <3ea0196b-7b1d-445e-9722-4dc48dd0a49c@linuxgalaxy.org> On 12/3/25 15:43, Russell Senior wrote: > A few months ago in mid-September, I happened to notice that Portland > Parks and Recreation website said that they had a community center with > a computer lab. That was the first I had ever heard of it. With a little > more research, I found that they'd received an equipment grant in 2012 > from Free Geek, running Ubuntu, to expand some previously existing > computer lab. I wondered, given the current state of Free Geek, what the > condition of the computer lab was and made a mental note to stop by some > day, wondering whether PLUG might help support it. > > ? https://www.portland.gov/parks/charles-jordan-community-center > (listed under amenities on the right side) > Still listed.? Be a shame if a computer lab can't be resurrected. I bet PLUGgers have all sorts spare hardware.? I also to know of under employed geeks who could help with support, education, etc for a modest remuneration or honorarium. -Ed From russell at pdxlinux.org Thu Dec 4 06:24:09 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 22:24:09 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Charles Jordan Community Center Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <19ae732ed92.6cac2df9434475.4353065292843167045@zoho.com> References: <03ff300f-17c4-434d-ae56-d04f9ddd0ed0@pdxlinux.org> <19ae732ed92.6cac2df9434475.4353065292843167045@zoho.com> Message-ID: <3f85a231-c48b-45ac-8c3f-275015806acb@pdxlinux.org> On 12/3/25 18:31, Patrick O'Connor wrote: > It is located on Foss avenue. A linux lab would be apt. LOL, good catch, indeed. > > Do you want me to inquire? > > I work for portland parks & wrecks. That's in our zone. If you could arrange a meeting to talk about whether it's considered desirable and what a collaboration might look like, that would be cool. > > Patrick > > > ---- On Wed, 03 Dec 2025 16:10:49 -0800 Michael Barnes wrote --- > > So everybody should drop in and ask to use the Computer Lab. Then tell them > > you're not paying an admission fee if there is no computer lab and walk > > out. Tell them the website says they have one. Be sure they see your > > disappointment. > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2025 at 3:44?PM Russell Senior wrote: > > > > > A few months ago in mid-September, I happened to notice that Portland > > > Parks and Recreation website said that they had a community center with > > > a computer lab. That was the first I had ever heard of it. With a little > > > more research, I found that they'd received an equipment grant in 2012 > > > from Free Geek, running Ubuntu, to expand some previously existing > > > computer lab. I wondered, given the current state of Free Geek, what the > > > condition of the computer lab was and made a mental note to stop by some > > > day, wondering whether PLUG might help support it. > > > > > > https://www.portland.gov/parks/charles-jordan-community-center > > > (listed under amenities on the right side) > > > > > > Today while I was in the neighborhood, I stopped by to ask about it and > > > to suggest that PLUG might be able to help them. However, the nice > > > person I talked to said words to the effect: "Oh, that hasn't been > > > around for years, since before the pandemic". I told him I'd seen it on > > > their website recently and suggested they should probably remove that > > > mention if it didn't really exist, and they expressed some surprise. I > > > came home, found the link I'd seen before, confirmed it looked like the > > > current site, and then left a voicemail with more detail about where I > > > had seen it, so by the time you read this it might already be gone. > > > > > > So, oops. I guess the City of Portland has zero computer labs, instead > > > of just one. > > > > > > -- > > > Russell Senior > > > PLUG Volunteer > > > russell at pdxlinux.org > > > > > > From russell at pdxlinux.org Thu Dec 4 06:26:42 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 22:26:42 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] REMINDER: Portland Linux/Unix Group General Meeting: Plan 9, with Anthony Sorace In-Reply-To: <606beaec-958a-4ed9-80c2-21a979c3f8ae@pdxlinux.org> References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> <606beaec-958a-4ed9-80c2-21a979c3f8ae@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: A final reminder, this is tomorrow (Thursday) evening! Should be interesting! On 11/30/25 22:13, Russell Senior wrote: > Just a reminder, coming up this week! > > On 11/15/25 01:28, Russell Senior wrote: >> Who: Anthony Sorace >> What: Plan 9 >> Where: 1930 SW 4th Avenue, Portland, Oregon 97201-5304, Room 86-01 >> When: Thursday December 4, 2025 at 7 PM >> Why: The pursuit of technology freedom >> >> >> Summary: >> >> Plan 9 is an operating system with some very interesting properties, >> especially around distributed systems, networking, and resource >> sharing. It was originally developed by the same group at Bell Labs >> which developed Unix and shares a clear heritage that will make many >> parts familiar to experienced users of other unix-like systems, but >> in many ways represents an "alternate universe" for how Unix might >> have developed. While it's seen only limited commercial use, it has >> proven itself suitable to a wide range of applications, including >> supercomputer clusters, network appliances, and embedded systems. And >> as a small, consistent system with a unifying philosophy, it can be >> interesting to study and explore even outside its practical utility. >> >> Together, let's take a brief tour of this alternate universe's >> history, what makes it exciting to people who live (or visit) there, >> the current landscape, and where it might (or might not!) be >> interesting for you. >> >> Bio: >> >> Anthony Sorace (he/him) is some sort of engineer. Professionally, his >> work has focused on system architecture and process analysis, looking >> at how people can use computers to solve (some of) their problems. On >> the side, he enjoys messing about with networking, databases, and >> systems software. He is a slightly reluctant web programmer and >> enthusiastic cook. He has been using Plan 9 since the late nineteen >> hundreds, a few weeks before starting a job at Bell Labs working with >> related technology, and currently serves as a director of the Plan 9 >> Foundation, a non-profit dedicated to advancing research on >> lightweight distributed systems using these technologies. >> >> Calagator: https://calagator.org/events/1250482315 >> >> With luck, the talk will also be streamed live here: >> http://www.twitch.tv/kngbwlf, and later posted to YouTube. >> >> PLUG is back at Portland State University, thanks to the Computer >> Science Department and to Andrew Greenberg. The room is in the >> basement of the PSU Engineering Building (also connected underground >> to the Fourth Avenue Building, or FAB). Enter through the Engineering >> Building. The outside door will be locked, but there should be >> someone present at the entrance to let you in starting at 6:40pm >> until 7pm. There will be a sign on the door with a phone number you >> can SMS if there isn't someone there to let you in immediately. >> >> From russell at pdxlinux.org Sat Dec 6 05:09:03 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2025 21:09:03 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ANNOUNCEMENT: Monthly PLUG Clinic on Sunday, December 21, 2025 NEW VENUE Message-ID: <7d5bda11-feee-4f71-87db-d334958a2789@pdxlinux.org> Where: Albina Large Community Room 2B ??? ??? ??? Multnomah County Library, Albina Branch ??? ??? ??? https://multcolib.org/hours-and-locations/albina-library ??? ??? ??? 205 NE Russell Street ??? ??? ??? Portland, Oregon 97212 When: Sunday, December 21, 2025, 1pm-5pm See also: https://calagator.org/events/1250482332 The PLUG Linux Clinic returns again this month on December 21, from 1pm-5pm, but at a different venue this month. The beautiful, newly re-opened Albina Branch Library on NE Russell Street. There is also access from the North side of the building, on Knott Street, west of MLK,Jr Blvd. Volunteer helpers are as desirable as helpees. Helping is fun and rewarding. If you've ever helped out at a PLUG Clinic before, come checkout the space! -- Russell Senior PLUG Volunteer russell at pdxlinux.org From rowlett at access.net Sat Dec 6 19:57:15 2025 From: rowlett at access.net (Richard Owlett) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2025 13:57:15 -0600 Subject: [PLUG] Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly??? Message-ID: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. I used it earlier today without problem. Now it's asking for a new password. As a trouble shooting 1st step I went to http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=recoverp&language=en and entered my email address. I got a return email with the expected UserID and password. What do I do now? TIA From kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org Sat Dec 6 23:53:57 2025 From: kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org (King Beowulf) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2025 23:53:57 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly??? In-Reply-To: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> References: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> Message-ID: On 12/6/25 11:57, Richard Owlett wrote: > I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. > My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. > I used it earlier today without problem. > Now it's asking for a new password. > > As a trouble shooting 1st step I went to > http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=recoverp&language=en > and entered my email address. > I got a return email with the expected UserID and password. > > What do I do now? > > TIA > I'm using news.eternal-september.org port 563 for SSL connections.? Seems to be working. They also reported (via eternal-september.support) today: "Authentication server became unresponsive due to a network problem that is currently being investigated. Back to normal now." People reported issues connecting with some clients. -Ed From rowlett at access.net Sun Dec 7 00:34:53 2025 From: rowlett at access.net (Richard Owlett) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2025 18:34:53 -0600 Subject: [PLUG] Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly??? In-Reply-To: References: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> Message-ID: <1dffa8a2-bc84-8a01-3f9c-09dc59e36fd8@access.net> On 12/6/25 5:53 PM, King Beowulf wrote: > On 12/6/25 11:57, Richard Owlett wrote: >> I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. >> My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. >> I used it earlier today without problem. >> Now it's asking for a new password. >> >> As a trouble shooting 1st step I went to >> http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=recoverp&language=en >> and entered my email address. >> I got a return email with the expected UserID and password. >> >> What do I do now? >> >> TIA >> > > I'm using > > news.eternal-september.org port 563 > > > for SSL connections.? Seems to be working. > > They also reported (via eternal-september.support) today: > > "Authentication server became unresponsive due to a network problem that is > currently being investigated. Back to normal now." > > People reported issues connecting with some clients. > > -Ed > Thank you. About an hour and half ago it seemed to be sort of working. It was still was asking for a new password but I succeeded in making a test post to misc.test ;/ I'll see if things are better tomorrow. From tedm at portlandia-it.com Sun Dec 7 01:59:58 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2025 17:59:58 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? Message-ID: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> Looks like the following is making the rounds: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2025/12/01/security-disaster-500-mil lion-microsoft-users-say-no-to-windows-11/ quick, get my smelling salts.. Ted From michaelewan15 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 03:28:25 2025 From: michaelewan15 at gmail.com (Michael Ewan) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2025 19:28:25 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? In-Reply-To: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> References: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: A lot of reluctance comes from recent news of Windows 11 trashing your disk(s), and Microsoft enabling AI tools that feed all your data back to them for training purposes. I have one Windows box for running backups with Carbonite, upgraded to Windows 11 then downgraded back to Windows 10 after the Windows trashes your disk bug. I am looking for a good cloud based backup solution for Linux if anyone has any suggestions. Yes, I have backups, I have Linux servers backing data to other disks, and then backing to other machines on the home network. That is great for three copies of everything, but I want important stuff like photos also off site. On Sat, Dec 6, 2025 at 6:00?PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Looks like the following is making the rounds: > > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2025/12/01/security-disaster-500-mil > lion-microsoft-users-say-no-to-windows-11/ > > > > quick, get my smelling salts.. > > > > Ted > > > From kenjen at tuta.com Sun Dec 7 04:14:06 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2025 05:14:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? In-Reply-To: References: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: Definitely not the person you ask about this - I wipe my system entirely twice a year. Curious, tho - what are you looking for? Point and click application? Web app? ssh access? sftp? ipfs? samba? something else? I've been testing internxt on my phone, but it seems unsuitable for the task. You could theoretically git repo everything, but you'll prolly get in trouble or be forced to pay for abusing the forge. You could throw a raspberry pi in your ma's attic and host a vpn connection from it... I'm currently toying with that one myself, if for no other reason than to allow me to pretend to be at her house when I'm watching Netflix. Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?6? 19:28 ???: michaelewan15 at gmail.com: > A lot of reluctance comes from recent news of Windows 11 trashing your > disk(s), and Microsoft enabling AI tools that feed all your data back > to them for training purposes. I have one Windows box for running > backups with Carbonite, upgraded to Windows 11 then downgraded back to > Windows 10 after the Windows trashes your disk bug. I am looking for > a good cloud based backup solution for Linux if anyone has any > suggestions. Yes, I have backups, I have Linux servers backing data > to other disks, and then backing to other machines on the home > network. That is great for three copies of everything, but I want > important stuff like photos also off site. > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2025 at 6:00?PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> >> Looks like the following is making the rounds: >> >> >> >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2025/12/01/security-disaster-500-mil >> lion-microsoft-users-say-no-to-windows-11/ >> >> >> >> quick, get my smelling salts.. >> >> >> >> Ted >> >> From kenjen at tuta.com Sun Dec 7 04:14:06 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2025 05:14:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? In-Reply-To: References: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: Definitely not the person you ask about this - I wipe my system entirely twice a year. Curious, tho - what are you looking for? Point and click application? Web app? ssh access? sftp? ipfs? samba? something else? I've been testing internxt on my phone, but it seems unsuitable for the task. You could theoretically git repo everything, but you'll prolly get in trouble or be forced to pay for abusing the forge. You could throw a raspberry pi in your ma's attic and host a vpn connection from it... I'm currently toying with that one myself, if for no other reason than to allow me to pretend to be at her house when I'm watching Netflix. Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?6? 19:28 ???: michaelewan15 at gmail.com: > A lot of reluctance comes from recent news of Windows 11 trashing your > disk(s), and Microsoft enabling AI tools that feed all your data back > to them for training purposes. I have one Windows box for running > backups with Carbonite, upgraded to Windows 11 then downgraded back to > Windows 10 after the Windows trashes your disk bug. I am looking for > a good cloud based backup solution for Linux if anyone has any > suggestions. Yes, I have backups, I have Linux servers backing data > to other disks, and then backing to other machines on the home > network. That is great for three copies of everything, but I want > important stuff like photos also off site. > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2025 at 6:00?PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> >> Looks like the following is making the rounds: >> >> >> >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2025/12/01/security-disaster-500-mil >> lion-microsoft-users-say-no-to-windows-11/ >> >> >> >> quick, get my smelling salts.. >> >> >> >> Ted >> >> From rowlett at access.net Sun Dec 7 11:32:59 2025 From: rowlett at access.net (Richard Owlett) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2025 05:32:59 -0600 Subject: [PLUG] Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly??? In-Reply-To: <1dffa8a2-bc84-8a01-3f9c-09dc59e36fd8@access.net> References: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> <1dffa8a2-bc84-8a01-3f9c-09dc59e36fd8@access.net> Message-ID: <5072f63c-2b07-3739-1be8-4b5a58c0b74e@access.net> On 12/6/25 6:34 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 12/6/25 5:53 PM, King Beowulf wrote: >> On 12/6/25 11:57, Richard Owlett wrote: >>> I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. >>> My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. >>> I used it earlier today without problem. >>> Now it's asking for a new password. >>> >>> As a trouble shooting 1st step I went to >>> http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=recoverp&language=en >>> and entered my email address. >>> I got a return email with the expected UserID and password. >>> >>> What do I do now? >>> >>> TIA >>> >> >> I'm using >> >> ?? news.eternal-september.org port 563 >> >> >> for SSL connections.? Seems to be working. >> >> They also reported (via eternal-september.support) today: >> >> "Authentication server became unresponsive due to a network problem >> that is >> currently being investigated. Back to normal now." >> >> People reported issues connecting with some clients. >> >> -Ed >> > > Thank you. > About an hour and half ago it seemed to be sort of working. > It was still was asking for a new password but I succeeded in making a > test post to misc.test ;/ > > I'll see if things are better tomorrow. > I'm still getting requests for a new password but am retrieving messages and am able to post. I have asked for further troubleshooting suggestions on eternal-september.support . From tedm at portlandia-it.com Sun Dec 7 15:10:05 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2025 07:10:05 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? In-Reply-To: References: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: <238501dc678b$91db3690$b591a3b0$@portlandia-it.com> The "windows trashes your disk bug" is a new one to me so I decided to investigate. This is what I found: 1) Reported to be caused by update KB5063878 2) Reported to only affect SSDs with Phison controllers running early/beta drive firmware on the SSD 3) Claimed by Microsoft and Phison to not exist However 1) Microsoft update KB5065426 replaced KB5063878 2) Phison has released SSD firmware updates since KB5063878 3) The bug seems to have mysteriously vanished in that there's no current reports of it that approached the level of reports that came out right after KB5063878 was released 4) There's a high signal to noise ratio on this bug because a lot of people were reporting it on stuff that wasn't SSDs I saw one report on a mag media drive for example 5) The bug caused the drives to just disappear. But a lot of reports were not saying that they were saying other things like the drive failed early, all of this made the signal to noise ratio much worse 6) Laptop drives have a higher failure rate than desktop 3.5" drives because of a) tight spaces increase component heat b) Mechanical movement stresses parts and can break connections in a laptop that have an effect on drive electronics 7) The general public is apparently not capable of unscrewing the bottom of laptop cases and replacing SSDs which are known wearable devices and are cheap, thus has unreasonably high expectations that SSDs are gonna last forever. It's important to understand that Phison does not sell direct to end users. They sell to OEMs like Crucial, Dell and others. If the bug is confined to specific hardware while other hardware is unaffected, then it is NOT a software bug which means Microsoft is perfectly credible when they claimed they could not reproduce the bug. Microsoft has nothing to lose if they said there WAS a bug and they released a fix - since Windows is a monopoly people are not going to stop using it - and, Microsoft has admitted numerous bugs in the past over the years that they fixed, such as the processor microcode debacle around a decade ago that caused numerous bluescreens. Phison, on the other hand, has an ENORMOUS amount to lose if they admit to a firmware bug in their hardware. Nobody in the general public has shown code disassembly proving out this bug they only were using general tools that track writes to SSDs and so forth that seem to indicate after KB5063878 that the number of reads and writes to SSDs greatly increased. So yes possibly something Microsoft did caused this bug to manifest in Phison drives. Since the original triggering KB was replaced, it's not easy now to try to go back and do binary file comparisons to prove that a "silent fix" was released by Microsoft. And of course, since Phison has released firmware updates for their SSDs, that's an admitted fix - despite the fact that Phison has claimed these updates "aren't to fix the bug" I don't have Phison hardware myself so I have no way of proving anything. But I can tell you about how business works. There is NOTHING that ANYONE in the general public can say that Phison is going to give a rat's ass about. But EVERYTHING in how the OEM's view Phison is what matters to them. It's clear to me that the OEMs like Dell, Crucial and so on, had a little secret meeting with Phison and told them "we don't know what is going on here. This started with Microsoft being blamed but we all know Microsoft is everyone's favorite whipping boy so they are always going to be blamed but they claim they aren't at fault and pointed out that you guys are the only ones affected. So for now - we are going to take Microsoft's side and we are going to agree with their logic that says if you folks are the only ones showing up in the reports, then it's your fault. We don?t give a crap how you deal with this but you better deal with it quick because if we keep seeing this 3-4 months from now we are finding different suppliers so our products don?t get smeared" The fact that just about all the posts on this are old tells me that Phison did, in fact, deal with it. Thus, NOTHING in my investigation of this shows any credibility to the claim that "Windows 11 is trashing your disks" and EVERYTHING points to Phison just screwing themselves and desperately lying, planting FUD, and ringer social medial posts, to delay people from understanding that they were actually to blame to give their devs time to figure out what they did wrong and fix it. Now as for the AI tools: 1) You can uninstall co-pilot from Apps 2) You can uninstall the enhanced copilot that gets installed if you install MS Office from Apps 3) Microsoft already collects "your data" and feeds it back to themselves via Telemetry. That is why they released Windows Enterprise and they released a supported method of turning all of this off, here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/manage-connections-from-windows-operating-system-components-to-microsoft-services Note that the information gleaned from the supported way of disabling Telemetry has been extended to other Windows versions like Windows Home, and there are tools that disable it, as well as disable the copilot AI, like this free one: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 Carbonite has cloud backup solutions for Linux in it's Core/Power/Ultimate professional plans, not in it's home user/consumer Basic/plus/prime plans. I think the takeaway here is: 1) Your typical Windows user is dumb as a box of rocks. They walk into the store, buy a computer, and expect to use it for 10 years until it hardware breaks, then they expect that hardware break to be trivial to fix and get them another 5-7 years out of the computer. They don't really give a crap what version of operating system is in use on the computer 2) Your typical Windows user is expecting to buy and use a computer like they buy and use a car. They are fine with spending $1500 for a computer but they want it to last 15 years. 3) The entire computer industry hates this and is constantly fighting against it. Some, like ASUS, deliberately engineer computers like water heaters - every component in their laptop is engineered to fail out in 5 years so they have a very high guarantee that the failure of one component will take out the entire machine. Others, like HP, use dual product lines - a business line that will last a long time but is terribly expensive and only sold to businesses who just automatically refresh when the warranty dies, and a consumer line that is cheaply made and will indeed break in 3 years unless the products are treated as carefully as cut crystal. 4) The computer industry media is somehow fixated on the idea that the general public gives a rat's ass about operating system versions and so on. They also cannot stand the idea of buying a computer like a car - because any slowing down of the constant product churn means they have a lot less to write about - so they also fight against that idea by waving around security bogymen and so on if you don't constantly update to new crap. I find the entire fight quite amusing. I can still get usable work out of 30 year old Pentiums and there's plenty of new distributions of FOSS operating systems that will boot on them. I've also had uptimes of 5 years or more on BSD systems that have never been updated. Ted -----Original Message----- From: PLUG On Behalf Of Michael Ewan Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2025 7:28 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? A lot of reluctance comes from recent news of Windows 11 trashing your disk(s), and Microsoft enabling AI tools that feed all your data back to them for training purposes. I have one Windows box for running backups with Carbonite, upgraded to Windows 11 then downgraded back to Windows 10 after the Windows trashes your disk bug. I am looking for a good cloud based backup solution for Linux if anyone has any suggestions. Yes, I have backups, I have Linux servers backing data to other disks, and then backing to other machines on the home network. That is great for three copies of everything, but I want important stuff like photos also off site. On Sat, Dec 6, 2025 at 6:00?PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Looks like the following is making the rounds: > > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2025/12/01/security-disaster-5 > 00-mil lion-microsoft-users-say-no-to-windows-11/ > > > > quick, get my smelling salts.. > > > > Ted > > > From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 15:15:25 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2025 10:15:25 -0500 Subject: [PLUG] Anyone see the latest Chicken Little headlines on Winders? In-Reply-To: References: <212401dc671d$3128c420$937a4c60$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: Backblaze? On Sat, Dec 6, 2025, 22:29 Michael Ewan wrote: > A lot of reluctance comes from recent news of Windows 11 trashing your > disk(s), and Microsoft enabling AI tools that feed all your data back > to them for training purposes. I have one Windows box for running > backups with Carbonite, upgraded to Windows 11 then downgraded back to > Windows 10 after the Windows trashes your disk bug. I am looking for > a good cloud based backup solution for Linux if anyone has any > suggestions. Yes, I have backups, I have Linux servers backing data > to other disks, and then backing to other machines on the home > network. That is great for three copies of everything, but I want > important stuff like photos also off site. > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2025 at 6:00?PM Ted Mittelstaedt > wrote: > > > > Looks like the following is making the rounds: > > > > > > > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2025/12/01/security-disaster-500-mil > > lion-microsoft-users-say-no-to-windows-11/ > > > > > > > > quick, get my smelling salts.. > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > From kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org Mon Dec 8 02:32:50 2025 From: kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org (King Beowulf) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2025 02:32:50 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly??? In-Reply-To: <5072f63c-2b07-3739-1be8-4b5a58c0b74e@access.net> References: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> <1dffa8a2-bc84-8a01-3f9c-09dc59e36fd8@access.net> <5072f63c-2b07-3739-1be8-4b5a58c0b74e@access.net> Message-ID: <71fd9a0c-6ea4-4aa3-be74-f232b3444ddf@linuxgalaxy.org> On 12/7/25 03:32, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 12/6/25 6:34 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: >> On 12/6/25 5:53 PM, King Beowulf wrote: >>> On 12/6/25 11:57, Richard Owlett wrote: >>>> I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. >>>> My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. >>>> I used it earlier today without problem. >>>> Now it's asking for a new password. >>>> >>>> ... > I'm still getting requests for a new password but am retrieving messages > and am able to post. I have asked for further troubleshooting > suggestions on eternal-september.support . > Richard, Have you told Seamonkey to cache/save your credentials.? You do have to "sign in" whenever you post or retrieve I think.? I use 'pan' and have it take care of logging in automatically. -Ed From rowlett at access.net Mon Dec 8 10:38:14 2025 From: rowlett at access.net (Richard Owlett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 04:38:14 -0600 Subject: [PLUG] Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly??? In-Reply-To: <71fd9a0c-6ea4-4aa3-be74-f232b3444ddf@linuxgalaxy.org> References: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> <1dffa8a2-bc84-8a01-3f9c-09dc59e36fd8@access.net> <5072f63c-2b07-3739-1be8-4b5a58c0b74e@access.net> <71fd9a0c-6ea4-4aa3-be74-f232b3444ddf@linuxgalaxy.org> Message-ID: <14d93ad8-b210-3611-f81b-dfc23155b07a@access.net> On 12/7/25 8:32 PM, King Beowulf wrote: > On 12/7/25 03:32, Richard Owlett wrote: >> On 12/6/25 6:34 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: >>> On 12/6/25 5:53 PM, King Beowulf wrote: >>>> On 12/6/25 11:57, Richard Owlett wrote: >>>>> I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. >>>>> My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. >>>>> I used it earlier today without problem. >>>>> Now it's asking for a new password. >>>>> >>>>> ... >> I'm still getting requests for a new password but am retrieving messages >> and am able to post. I have asked for further troubleshooting >> suggestions on eternal-september.support . >> > Richard, > > Have you told Seamonkey to cache/save your credentials. I don't remember having done so. I've been using eternal-september for a long time. How/where would I look? Mechanically to access eternal-september, I highlight eternal-september in list in left panel of "Mail & Newsgroup" screen. Then I click the "Get Msgs" icon in the panel above the screen. Only in the last week or so has a popup box announcing a login failure and asking for new password appeared. If I click "Cancel" to ignore, access to eternal-september seems to be normal. I have been assuming that the news server was the problem. I suspect I have a SeaMonkey problem instead and will ask on alt.comp.software.seamonkey . Thank you >? You do have to > "sign in" whenever you post or retrieve I think.? I use 'pan' and have > it take care of logging in automatically. > > -Ed > > > From rowlett at access.net Mon Dec 8 11:08:26 2025 From: rowlett at access.net (Richard Owlett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 05:08:26 -0600 Subject: [PLUG] Normal access to eternal.september regained - was [Re: Determining if a USENET server is up and running properly???] In-Reply-To: <14d93ad8-b210-3611-f81b-dfc23155b07a@access.net> References: <7604bfbc-ff61-7369-fe5a-cb3890cdc10f@access.net> <1dffa8a2-bc84-8a01-3f9c-09dc59e36fd8@access.net> <5072f63c-2b07-3739-1be8-4b5a58c0b74e@access.net> <71fd9a0c-6ea4-4aa3-be74-f232b3444ddf@linuxgalaxy.org> <14d93ad8-b210-3611-f81b-dfc23155b07a@access.net> Message-ID: <2e36ac81-f62c-bb3d-001e-c3b3d4d8279f@access.net> I had had kludgey access to eternal-september just before making the post below. Then just now tried to access eternal-september and got a *DIFFERENT* popup requesting new password. That prompted to look at SeaMonkey's "Password Manager". There no longer an eternal-september entry. Entered data in new popup. All _appears_ to work as it had always worked previously. ??????????! ;/ On 12/8/25 4:38 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 12/7/25 8:32 PM, King Beowulf wrote: >> On 12/7/25 03:32, Richard Owlett wrote: >>> On 12/6/25 6:34 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: >>>> On 12/6/25 5:53 PM, King Beowulf wrote: >>>>> On 12/6/25 11:57, Richard Owlett wrote: >>>>>> I use SeaMonkey 2.53.21 on a Debian 12.8 system. >>>>>> My USENET connection is news.eternal-september.org port 119. >>>>>> I used it earlier today without problem. >>>>>> Now it's asking for a new password. >>>>>> >>>>>> ... >>> I'm still getting requests for a new password but am retrieving messages >>> and am able to post. I have asked for further troubleshooting >>> suggestions on eternal-september.support . >>> >> Richard, >> >> Have you told Seamonkey to cache/save your credentials. > > I don't remember having done so. I've been using eternal-september for a > long time. How/where would I look? > > Mechanically to access eternal-september, I highlight eternal-september > in list in left panel of "Mail & Newsgroup" screen. Then I click the > "Get Msgs" icon in the panel above the screen. Only in the last week or > so has a popup box announcing a login failure and asking for new > password appeared. > If I click "Cancel" to ignore, access to eternal-september seems to be > normal. > > I have been assuming that the news server was the problem. > I suspect I have a SeaMonkey problem instead and will ask on > alt.comp.software.seamonkey . > > Thank you > > >> ? You do have to >> "sign in" whenever you post or retrieve I think.? I use 'pan' and have >> it take care of logging in automatically. >> >> -Ed >> >> From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Mon Dec 8 16:54:54 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 08:54:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive Message-ID: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> My desktop's /dev/sdb/ is a 5" 2T HDD. It's about 5-6 years old and I want to replace it before it fails. My web search suggests that an internal, 2.5" SSD would likely last longer than another 5" HDD. I am asking for recommendations on which brand to purchase. TIA, Rich From michaelewan15 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 17:39:53 2025 From: michaelewan15 at gmail.com (Michael Ewan) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 09:39:53 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Western Digital Blue or Red (depending on use case) are generally a good choice. On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 8:55?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > > My desktop's /dev/sdb/ is a 5" 2T HDD. It's about 5-6 years old and I want > to replace it before it fails. My web search suggests that an internal, 2.5" > SSD would likely last longer than another 5" HDD. > > I am asking for recommendations on which brand to purchase. > > TIA, > > Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Mon Dec 8 17:52:13 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Michael Ewan wrote: > Western Digital Blue or Red (depending on use case) are generally a good choice. Michael, So a WD Blue hdd would be a good choice for an SOHO server/workstation. Thanks, Rich From michaelewan15 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:36:57 2025 From: michaelewan15 at gmail.com (Michael Ewan) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 10:36:57 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: I have had a 1TB Blue for several years, but it was only a static backup, so not a lot of bashing on it. On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 9:52?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Michael Ewan wrote: > > > Western Digital Blue or Red (depending on use case) are generally a good choice. > > Michael, > > So a WD Blue hdd would be a good choice for an SOHO server/workstation. > > Thanks, > > Rich From kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org Mon Dec 8 18:40:08 2025 From: kingbeowulf at linuxgalaxy.org (King Beowulf) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2025 18:40:08 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ANNOUNCEMENT: Portland Linux/Unix Group General Meeting: Plan 9, with Anthony Sorace In-Reply-To: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> On 11/15/25 01:28, Russell Senior wrote: > Who: Anthony Sorace > What: Plan 9 > Where: 1930 SW 4th Avenue, Portland, Oregon 97201-5304, Room 86-01 > When: Thursday December 4, 2025 at 7 PM > Why: The pursuit of technology freedom Hello All, The Plan 9 video in all it's glory is uploading and should be available in a few minutes.? This 4K copy fixes the streaming glitch when we were live on Twitch. https://youtu.be/AobkPcfZ8xM -Ed From refugia at zoho.com Mon Dec 8 20:23:21 2025 From: refugia at zoho.com (Patrick O'Connor) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2025 12:23:21 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Looking to rehome some pine computers In-Reply-To: <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> Message-ID: <19affa20b41.56a4a52c743538.4224579719262511557@zoho.com> How's everyone's RAMageddon going? I have some computers I don't need anymore.?Do any of you all want them? I moved and am trying to pare down my crate of cables & antique Thinkpads. My wife is out of town so I am making a mess whilst reassembling my home lab. ? ? Thinkpad dock that fits x220? https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_UltraBase_Series_3 ?????A bunch of Lenovo & off-brand barrel plug chargers ?????Pinebook Pro laptop ? ? ??????https://pine64.org/devices/pinebook_pro/ ?????PinePhone Pro ? ? ??????https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone_pro/ ? ? ??????https://pine64.org/documentation/Phone_Accessories/Keyboard/ ?????Kijani Grows V2 Smart Controller for controlling aquaponics systems ? ? ??????https://makerfaire.com/maker/entry/50572/ ? ? ? https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-an-IoT-Based-Smart-Aquaponics-Educati/ThinkPad ?????Various arm SOCs, cables, chargers and adapter ephemera -Patrick From elcaseti at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:32:22 2025 From: elcaseti at gmail.com (elcaset) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 12:32:22 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Looking to rehome some pine computers In-Reply-To: <19affa20b41.56a4a52c743538.4224579719262511557@zoho.com> References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> <19affa20b41.56a4a52c743538.4224579719262511557@zoho.com> Message-ID: I'd like to use everything except the hydroponics. I'm especially interested in the Pinephone Pro. On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 12:23?PM Patrick O'Connor wrote: > How's everyone's RAMageddon going? > > > > I have some computers I don't need anymore. Do any of you all want them? > > > > I moved and am trying to pare down my crate of cables & antique Thinkpads. > My wife is out of town so I am making a mess whilst reassembling my home > lab. > > > > Thinkpad dock that fits x220 > > https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_UltraBase_Series_3 > > > > A bunch of Lenovo & off-brand barrel plug chargers > > > > Pinebook Pro laptop > > https://pine64.org/devices/pinebook_pro/ > > > > > PinePhone Pro > > https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone_pro/ > > https://pine64.org/documentation/Phone_Accessories/Keyboard/ > > > > Kijani Grows V2 Smart Controller for controlling aquaponics systems > > https://makerfaire.com/maker/entry/50572/ > > > https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-an-IoT-Based-Smart-Aquaponics-Educati/ThinkPad > > > > > Various arm SOCs, cables, chargers and adapter ephemera > > > > -Patrick > From john.bartley at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:42:44 2025 From: john.bartley at gmail.com (John Bartley) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 12:42:44 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Looking to rehome some pine computers (Patrick O'Connor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would appreciate the Pinebook Pro PC and have wheels to make pickup. -- -- 73/Best regards de John Bartley K7AAY CN85oj @503bartley.pdx.social @503bartley.bsky.social john at 503bartley.com From keithl at keithl.com Mon Dec 8 23:00:16 2025 From: keithl at keithl.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 15:00:16 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <20251208230016.GA1650@gate.kl-ic.com> On Mon, Dec 08, 2025 at 08:54:54AM -0800, Rich Shepard wrote: > My desktop's /dev/sdb/ is a 5" 2T HDD. It's about 5-6 years old and I want > to replace it before it fails. My web search suggests that an internal, 2.5" > SSD would likely last longer than another 5" HDD. > > I am asking for recommendations on which brand to purchase. As I upgrade distros (including ancient Centos to Debian), I move disk content to Samsung 870 EVO drives. Those are "three bits per memory cell" drives (three voltage levels), a compromise between cost and my concern with errors uncorrectable errors emerging. Samsung also peddles QVO "four bits per memory cell" drives (sixteen voltage levels per cell). That's either spectacular analog precision for trillions of transistors (with PLENTY of spare blocks), or permanently lost data if Samsung had a "dirty week at the fab" resulting in eventual cell rot. The Samsung PRO series is TWO bits per cell, more expensive but faster and probably more survivable. I still use 12TB Seagate Ironwolf spinny hard drives for rsync backups on two dedicated backup servers, but that's mostly emotional inertia. It is better to duplicate content across heterogeneous systems. I'm amused that I spend fewer dollars per year for MANY of these SSD drives than I spent for my first 80MB (Mega, not Tera) ST506 Shugart/Seagate hard drive, decades ago. My meat brain fails faster than those ancient platter drives did, so some my nattering above probably fails checksum. Keith L. -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From keithl at keithl.com Tue Dec 9 06:13:14 2025 From: keithl at keithl.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 22:13:14 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] (no subject) Message-ID: <20251209061314.GA5564@gate.kl-ic.com> Subject "analog":correction Re: [PLUG] ... desktop drive Reply-To: In-Reply-To: <20251208230016.GA1650 at gate.kl-ic.com> ============ On Mon, Dec 08, 2025 at 08:54:54AM -0800, Rich Shepard wrote: ... > SSD would likely last longer than another 5" HDD. ... > I am asking for recommendations on which brand to purchase. ============ On Mon, Dec 08, 2025 at 03:00:16PM -0800, Keith Lofstrom wrote: ... > move disk content to Samsung 870 EVO drives. ... > Those are "three bits per memory cell" drives (three voltage > levels), a compromise between cost and my concern with errors **** correction: EIGHT voltage levels > Samsung also peddles QVO "four bits per memory cell" drives > (sixteen voltage levels per cell). That's either spectacular ... > The Samsung PRO series is TWO bits per cell, more expensive **** correction add: FOUR voltage levels > but faster and probably more survivable. ============= MORE INFO Besides pedantically correcting my error, I will attempt to explain (as an analog CMOS chip designer) WHY four cell levels is more robust than eight or 16 cell levels, and what those levels do. Also, why it is so INCREDIBLY SUPER AWESOME that Samsung can make chips with TRILLIONS of ***INCREDIBLY PRECISE*** MOSFET transistors, not just used as 1/0 switches, but as ANALOG LEVEL MEMORY, which is converted to digital bits using VERY fast, precise, adaptive analog-to-digital converters and subsequent digital error correction, and doing ALL THAT with nanojoules of power per readout bit. If the digitization levels or the sources shift, incorrect bits emerge. I can imagine a read circuit that repeats the read after dithering the bit threshold levels, rinse and repeat (at gigahertz speed) until the checksums match. I can't imagine dithering threshold levels and read head position on a 7200 rpm spinny disk with 8.3 milliseconds between attempts, rather than nanoseconds. Decades ago, before starting my own businesses, I was a newbie analog integrated circuit designer at Tektronix, working with some of the best analog chip designers IN THE WORLD (better to be #20 of the top team rather than #1 of a middle team). After years of collaboration on other projects, I led some recent hires to design a 100 megasample-per-second 10 bit analog-to-digital converter, first in a planned series of faster 12 bit converters. Tricks such as gray-scale encoding on the comparator ladder, followed by a few pipeline registers for metastability resolution, THEN the digital conversion to integer binary. Otherwise, you get "sparkle codes" where (say) 1101111111 resolves to 1101100000 because the "deciding analog comparator" cannot make a decision before raw comparator outputs are converted to binary. If you see oddball "many zero" or "many ones" errors in a digitized data stream, that may be because the converter designer did not understand metastability. ---- I annoyed others by calling that first product a 0.1 GIGAsample-per-second converter, sort of a "you ain't seen NOTHIN' yet" brag about my future plans. Sadly, Tektronix sales dropped (DOE stopped irradiating hundreds of Tek scopes and digitizers per nuclear test). Tek's founders transferred "leadership" to bean counters. I left to do my own businesses, including "non blocking crossbar" integrated circuits, designed for hardware logic simulators but also useful for internet backbone routing. I added my own channel quality test circuits to those crossbars, useful for production test but too complicated to describe to the customers using the chips. I used to think I was Hot Stuff, but seeing what Samsung has accomplished inside these SSD memory chips makes my businesses and products look like a lemonade stand. I write the above neither to brag or to grovel, but to point out that Samsung has accomplished PRODIGIOUS feats of engineering with their 870 SSD drive series, and that the United States deploys zillions of them. I'm proud to share a global economy with Samsung. However, Samsung's Suwon-si headquarters is 40 miles south of the North Korean border. I presume the design engineers are in the same region, though Samsung is opening a design center near Austin TX. The drives are assembled in Vietnam and their marketing arm is in Ireland and the UK, so perhaps they can regroup a few years after a North Korean invasion. I write about THAT not to fear the NKs or anyone else, but to point out that the US is heavily interconnected with the global economy. Protecting that economy may be essential to our individual personal survival. Failed real estate hucksters peddling nativism and tariffs may be more dangerous than the NKs. Or they may be brilliant visionaries. We must not bet all the marbles on our own wished-for outcome. For us, the technical lesson is clear; design systems and software that can survive a few years of interrupted international supply. Keep few spares. Learn to do more with less, and learn how to downsize infrastructure tasks and business targets if irreplaceable components fail. I hope the situation NEVER degrades that far, and prefer a rosy future. But as Mel Brooks wrote for his 1970 comedy The Twelve Chairs, "Hope for the best, expect the worst." Is that technical, or PLUG-TALK? I hope we can focus on the technical challenges and opportunities, design and code and deploy, recover from disaster, and earn big bucks, while the talking heads talk and talk. Keith L. -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From tedm at portlandia-it.com Tue Dec 9 07:29:09 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 23:29:09 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> Only if it's a single drive. I don't build SOHO servers anymore with single drives. Nowadays I use 2 drives and Ubuntu Server than during the setup configure BIOS to set the disks as just a bunch of dumb drives, and then during OS installation turn on drive mirroring. Pricing on used WD Golds is such that that's where you want to be at. Used Golds are usually datacenter pulls. Now for ultra reliability you can't beat a pair of WD Greens running at 5400 rpm. I have a pair that the mirror has gone through 3 PCs now. The drives have outlasted motherboards and power supplies. Ted -----Original Message----- From: PLUG On Behalf Of Rich Shepard Sent: Monday, December 8, 2025 9:52 AM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Michael Ewan wrote: > Western Digital Blue or Red (depending on use case) are generally a good choice. Michael, So a WD Blue hdd would be a good choice for an SOHO server/workstation. Thanks, Rich From kenjen at tuta.com Tue Dec 9 07:43:55 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 08:43:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] Looking to rehome some pine computers In-Reply-To: References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> <19affa20b41.56a4a52c743538.4224579719262511557@zoho.com> Message-ID: Da*n, you beat me to it elcaset!? Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?8? 12:32 ???: elcaseti at gmail.com: > I'd like to use everything except the hydroponics. I'm especially > interested in the Pinephone Pro. > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 12:23?PM Patrick O'Connor wrote: > >> How's everyone's RAMageddon going? >> >> >> >> I have some computers I don't need anymore. Do any of you all want them? >> >> >> >> I moved and am trying to pare down my crate of cables & antique Thinkpads. >> My wife is out of town so I am making a mess whilst reassembling my home >> lab. >> >> >> >> Thinkpad dock that fits x220 >> >> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_UltraBase_Series_3 >> >> >> >> A bunch of Lenovo & off-brand barrel plug chargers >> >> >> >> Pinebook Pro laptop >> >> https://pine64.org/devices/pinebook_pro/ >> >> >> >> >> PinePhone Pro >> >> https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone_pro/ >> >> https://pine64.org/documentation/Phone_Accessories/Keyboard/ >> >> >> >> Kijani Grows V2 Smart Controller for controlling aquaponics systems >> >> https://makerfaire.com/maker/entry/50572/ >> >> >> https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-an-IoT-Based-Smart-Aquaponics-Educati/ThinkPad >> >> >> >> >> Various arm SOCs, cables, chargers and adapter ephemera >> >> >> >> -Patrick >> From kenjen at tuta.com Tue Dec 9 07:43:55 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 08:43:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] Looking to rehome some pine computers In-Reply-To: References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> <19affa20b41.56a4a52c743538.4224579719262511557@zoho.com> Message-ID: Da*n, you beat me to it elcaset!? Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?8? 12:32 ???: elcaseti at gmail.com: > I'd like to use everything except the hydroponics. I'm especially > interested in the Pinephone Pro. > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 12:23?PM Patrick O'Connor wrote: > >> How's everyone's RAMageddon going? >> >> >> >> I have some computers I don't need anymore. Do any of you all want them? >> >> >> >> I moved and am trying to pare down my crate of cables & antique Thinkpads. >> My wife is out of town so I am making a mess whilst reassembling my home >> lab. >> >> >> >> Thinkpad dock that fits x220 >> >> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_UltraBase_Series_3 >> >> >> >> A bunch of Lenovo & off-brand barrel plug chargers >> >> >> >> Pinebook Pro laptop >> >> https://pine64.org/devices/pinebook_pro/ >> >> >> >> >> PinePhone Pro >> >> https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone_pro/ >> >> https://pine64.org/documentation/Phone_Accessories/Keyboard/ >> >> >> >> Kijani Grows V2 Smart Controller for controlling aquaponics systems >> >> https://makerfaire.com/maker/entry/50572/ >> >> >> https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-an-IoT-Based-Smart-Aquaponics-Educati/ThinkPad >> >> >> >> >> Various arm SOCs, cables, chargers and adapter ephemera >> >> >> >> -Patrick >> From elcaseti at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 08:33:39 2025 From: elcaseti at gmail.com (elcaset) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 00:33:39 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Looking to rehome some pine computers In-Reply-To: References: <7824c399-88a2-436a-a5aa-2fdbe1f53eda@pdxlinux.org> <379cdf5a-4955-4af6-afa8-a07a2f9683d4@linuxgalaxy.org> <19affa20b41.56a4a52c743538.4224579719262511557@zoho.com> Message-ID: Hi Ken, Actually, I wasn't 1st in line. Some other folks are. They just didn't reply to this list. On Tue, Dec 9, 2025 at 12:12?AM wrote: > Da*n, you beat me to it elcaset! > Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? > | Danke | Wado | ???????, > ???????Kenshin, Jenna? > > "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan > Moran > > > > 2025?12?8? 12:32 ???: elcaseti at gmail.com: > > > I'd like to use everything except the hydroponics. I'm especially > > interested in the Pinephone Pro. > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 12:23?PM Patrick O'Connor > wrote: > > > >> How's everyone's RAMageddon going? > >> > >> > >> > >> I have some computers I don't need anymore. Do any of you all want them? > >> > >> > >> > >> I moved and am trying to pare down my crate of cables & antique > Thinkpads. > >> My wife is out of town so I am making a mess whilst reassembling my home > >> lab. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thinkpad dock that fits x220 > >> > >> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_UltraBase_Series_3 > >> > >> > >> > >> A bunch of Lenovo & off-brand barrel plug chargers > >> > >> > >> > >> Pinebook Pro laptop > >> > >> https://pine64.org/devices/pinebook_pro/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> PinePhone Pro > >> > >> https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone_pro/ > >> > >> https://pine64.org/documentation/Phone_Accessories/Keyboard/ > >> > >> > >> > >> Kijani Grows V2 Smart Controller for controlling aquaponics systems > >> > >> https://makerfaire.com/maker/entry/50572/ > >> > >> > >> > https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-an-IoT-Based-Smart-Aquaponics-Educati/ThinkPad > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Various arm SOCs, cables, chargers and adapter ephemera > >> > >> > >> > >> -Patrick > >> > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Tue Dec 9 13:25:35 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 05:25:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: <4f96f587-dbb4-a15d-97fe-479bdae07dfd@appl-ecosys.com> On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Only if it's a single drive. Ted, The OS is on an SSD, the HDD holds /home, /opt, and /data1. Backups are in the 4-bay external box. > Now for ultra reliability you can't beat a pair of WD Greens running at > 5400 rpm. I have a pair that the mirror has gone through 3 PCs now. The > drives have outlasted motherboards and power supplies. Huh! That's a WD color I've not before considered. Thanks, Rich From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 16:21:06 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 11:21:06 -0500 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: You probably wanted to say "you can't beat MY pair of WD Greens running at 5400" It is pretty wild to make general reliability statements with sample size 2 and without model, and batch number. I had 2 out of 8 WD greens failing years ago with total data loss about a month in their life times. WD replaced them without extra hassle, and none of them failed until retired years later. Still a fail is a fail .... I would not say bad or great based on sample size 8 without model and batch .... Backblaze stats are good source for hdd reliability, if you can get their model numbers in retail. Just my 2c, -T On Tue, Dec 9, 2025, 02:29 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Only if it's a single drive. > > I don't build SOHO servers anymore with single drives. Nowadays I use 2 > drives and Ubuntu Server than during the setup configure BIOS to set the > disks as just a bunch of dumb drives, and then during OS installation turn > on drive mirroring. > > Pricing on used WD Golds is such that that's where you want to be at. Used > Golds are usually datacenter pulls. > > Now for ultra reliability you can't beat a pair of WD Greens running at > 5400 > rpm. I have a pair that the mirror has gone through 3 PCs now. The drives > have outlasted motherboards and power supplies. > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: PLUG On Behalf Of Rich Shepard > Sent: Monday, December 8, 2025 9:52 AM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive > > On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Michael Ewan wrote: > > > Western Digital Blue or Red (depending on use case) are generally a good > choice. > > Michael, > > So a WD Blue hdd would be a good choice for an SOHO server/workstation. > > Thanks, > > Rich > > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Tue Dec 9 17:03:42 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 09:03:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Now for ultra reliability you can't beat a pair of WD Greens running at > 5400 rpm. I have a pair that the mirror has gone through 3 PCs now. The > drives have outlasted motherboards and power supplies. Ted, No longer manufactured. Regards, Rich From tedm at portlandia-it.com Tue Dec 9 18:06:18 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 10:06:18 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: <00fe01dc6936$84c51050$8e4f30f0$@portlandia-it.com> Yeah, those were a drive model that traded in speed for reliability. They were a low-power low-heat model specifically designed for use in NASes and laptops where cooling was almost non-existent. The problem is they were among the first that used 4k sectors and unless the OS blocksize was synced to the disk, then their transfer speed was abysmal. As a result from a marketing perspective they had a terrible reputation which is why WD retired the color in 2015 although there's still plenty of them floating around that are either New Old Stock (NOS) never used, or are used ones... Rule of thumb I've always used is never buy used disk drives unless they are going into mirrors or other RAID arrays, though. Ted -----Original Message----- From: PLUG On Behalf Of Rich Shepard Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2025 9:04 AM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive On Mon, 8 Dec 2025, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Now for ultra reliability you can't beat a pair of WD Greens running > at > 5400 rpm. I have a pair that the mirror has gone through 3 PCs now. > The drives have outlasted motherboards and power supplies. Ted, No longer manufactured. Regards, Rich From keithl at keithl.com Wed Dec 10 02:07:10 2025 From: keithl at keithl.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2025 18:07:10 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: <20251210020710.GA21073@gate.kl-ic.com> On Mon, Dec 08, 2025 at 11:29:09PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Only if it's a single drive. > > I don't build SOHO servers anymore with single drives. Nowadays I use 2 > drives and Ubuntu Server than during the setup configure BIOS to set the > disks as just a bunch of dumb drives, and then during OS installation turn > on drive mirroring. Keep in mind that power supplies can fail as well, often killing what is connected to them. Usually failure is to zero volts output, but a particularly nasty form of failure is the output electrolytic capacitors going open circuit, often resulting in damaging power pulses well above the normal DC design average. Integrated ircuits can draw VASTLY more current when power voltages exceed design limits. The motor and interface silicon chips are low mass and heat FAST. Ted's "doubled drives" will increase reliability for mechanical drive failures (in my experience, mostly head crashes and plowed oxide on the disk platter, followed by spindle motor failure). A good idea ... before 2020. However, as a chip engineer, I prefer to leave the motors in the fab, moving wafers and attaching chips to packages long before they leave the factory and enter my door. I have problems enough with cooling fan failures. Still ... oxide on a platter can store "magnetic pixels" as densely as a microscopic read head can find them, so the same lithography techniques that make small transistors can alos make very small read heads and very uniform oxide platters. I presume disk drives will continue to pack more bits onto a square millimeter, enabling more bits per platter and drive. Above 4 terabytes or so, disks win cost per bit (perhaps not cost-per-bit-YEAR or bits-per-WATT), so they have a place in many computer systems. But not for long. Moore's Law continues to chew up legacy systems and digest them into microchips. --- As for me, I use big magnetic platter disks for system backups, hundreds of soft-linked rsync images. For now. I will do this until somebody invents a "write once" optical tape backup drive using inexpensive, indelible optical tape, solid-state-steerable UV lasers, and submicron "bit pixels". A 5?m thick, 5mm wide, 200 meter length optical tape spool/cartridge with 1?m hex-grid pixels and 2x redundant coding might store 5 terabytes of backups in a plastic cassette the size of an audio tape cassette, with similar prices. A few pennies more for a megabyte flash "index" chip in the optical tape cassette, with RFID-style encrypted readout, so you can scan a drawer of optical tape cartridge indexes to find the data you want. Platter drives will eventually follow DOS into history's dust bin. * Keith L. * (my hands first wrote "dust bunny", which is apropos of my sloppy information management processes). -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From tedm at portlandia-it.com Wed Dec 10 09:08:50 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 01:08:50 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive In-Reply-To: <20251210020710.GA21073@gate.kl-ic.com> References: <8bc79d60-40a2-a9d2-32da-9c5cc5298fe@appl-ecosys.com> <1523aa-176-5daf-4b-5095879c2f68@appl-ecosys.com> <28e101dc68dd$825a2840$870e78c0$@portlandia-it.com> <20251210020710.GA21073@gate.kl-ic.com> Message-ID: <021d01dc69b4$997d55b0$cc780110$@portlandia-it.com> Well, the pair of greens I have (that I'm still using) one of the chassises did have a PS failure, replaced the PS and it booted up fine. That server is backed up as are all of my servers. The only time I've ever seen a PS failure that scotched the drive was an embedded device. It was just a cheaply made PS Cooling fan failures are common but generally take out the GPUs. Most of the common desktop Dells and such you find around save a nickle By using a combo giant case fan and ducting to cool a massive CPU heatsink. Fan quality matters tremendously. Fans in my Cisco network gear rarely fail I've only had 1 that did in a router. There's 4 other fans in there I replaced it not because the router was overheating but because the log was filling up with entries bitching about the failed fan. Fans in cheap crappy switches tend to fail often. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Keith Lofstrom Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2025 6:07 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: 'Portland Linux/Unix Group' Subject: Re: [PLUG] Hardware advice: replacement internal desktop drive On Mon, Dec 08, 2025 at 11:29:09PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Only if it's a single drive. > > I don't build SOHO servers anymore with single drives. Nowadays I use > 2 drives and Ubuntu Server than during the setup configure BIOS to set > the disks as just a bunch of dumb drives, and then during OS > installation turn on drive mirroring. Keep in mind that power supplies can fail as well, often killing what is connected to them. Usually failure is to zero volts output, but a particularly nasty form of failure is the output electrolytic capacitors going open circuit, often resulting in damaging power pulses well above the normal DC design average. Integrated ircuits can draw VASTLY more current when power voltages exceed design limits. The motor and interface silicon chips are low mass and heat FAST. Ted's "doubled drives" will increase reliability for mechanical drive failures (in my experience, mostly head crashes and plowed oxide on the disk platter, followed by spindle motor failure). A good idea ... before 2020. However, as a chip engineer, I prefer to leave the motors in the fab, moving wafers and attaching chips to packages long before they leave the factory and enter my door. I have problems enough with cooling fan failures. Still ... oxide on a platter can store "magnetic pixels" as densely as a microscopic read head can find them, so the same lithography techniques that make small transistors can alos make very small read heads and very uniform oxide platters. I presume disk drives will continue to pack more bits onto a square millimeter, enabling more bits per platter and drive. Above 4 terabytes or so, disks win cost per bit (perhaps not cost-per-bit-YEAR or bits-per-WATT), so they have a place in many computer systems. But not for long. Moore's Law continues to chew up legacy systems and digest them into microchips. --- As for me, I use big magnetic platter disks for system backups, hundreds of soft-linked rsync images. For now. I will do this until somebody invents a "write once" optical tape backup drive using inexpensive, indelible optical tape, solid-state-steerable UV lasers, and submicron "bit pixels". A 5?m thick, 5mm wide, 200 meter length optical tape spool/cartridge with 1?m hex-grid pixels and 2x redundant coding might store 5 terabytes of backups in a plastic cassette the size of an audio tape cassette, with similar prices. A few pennies more for a megabyte flash "index" chip in the optical tape cassette, with RFID-style encrypted readout, so you can scan a drawer of optical tape cartridge indexes to find the data you want. Platter drives will eventually follow DOS into history's dust bin. * Keith L. * (my hands first wrote "dust bunny", which is apropos of my sloppy information management processes). -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 16:40:29 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 08:40:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused Message-ID: It's been a very long time since I last set up ssh on a new host. I've forgotten the sequence to correct all errors and no longer have PLUG messages or other docs on resolving issues. Now I'm trying to get scp bi-directional connections between the desktop and the laptop. The desktop currently runs 14.2 (to be upgraded to 15.0 when I get ssh working on the laptop) and the laptop runs a fully patched 15.0, >From the desktop: $ scp .ssh/* caddis:.ssh/ ssh: connect to host caddis port nnnnn: No route to host lost connection >From the laptop: scp salmo:.ssh/* .ssh/ ssh: connect to host salmo port nnnnn: Connection refused scp: Connection closed Many Slackware versions ago I had a doc with all steps in installing and configuring SSH. That's gone and probably long out of date. Should I run ssh-keygen on the desktop, laptop, both? If so, what's the next step to connect the two hosts? TIA, Rich From kenjen at tuta.com Wed Dec 10 16:49:27 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 17:49:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Both of those seem like traffic routing(network/firewall) issues to me... Can you ping each machine from the other on the ssh port(23, I think)? Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?10? 8:40 ???: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com: > It's been a very long time since I last set up ssh on a new host. I've > forgotten the sequence to correct all errors and no longer have PLUG > messages or other docs on resolving issues. > > Now I'm trying to get scp bi-directional connections between the desktop and > the laptop. The desktop currently runs 14.2 (to be upgraded to 15.0 when I > get ssh working on the laptop) and the laptop runs a fully patched 15.0, > > From the desktop: > $ scp .ssh/* caddis:.ssh/ > ssh: connect to host caddis port nnnnn: No route to host > lost connection > > From the laptop: > scp salmo:.ssh/* .ssh/ > ssh: connect to host salmo port nnnnn: Connection refused > scp: Connection closed > > Many Slackware versions ago I had a doc with all steps in installing and > configuring SSH. That's gone and probably long out of date. > > Should I run ssh-keygen on the desktop, laptop, both? If so, what's the next > step to connect the two hosts? > > TIA, > > Rich > From kenjen at tuta.com Wed Dec 10 16:49:27 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 17:49:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Both of those seem like traffic routing(network/firewall) issues to me... Can you ping each machine from the other on the ssh port(23, I think)? Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?10? 8:40 ???: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com: > It's been a very long time since I last set up ssh on a new host. I've > forgotten the sequence to correct all errors and no longer have PLUG > messages or other docs on resolving issues. > > Now I'm trying to get scp bi-directional connections between the desktop and > the laptop. The desktop currently runs 14.2 (to be upgraded to 15.0 when I > get ssh working on the laptop) and the laptop runs a fully patched 15.0, > > From the desktop: > $ scp .ssh/* caddis:.ssh/ > ssh: connect to host caddis port nnnnn: No route to host > lost connection > > From the laptop: > scp salmo:.ssh/* .ssh/ > ssh: connect to host salmo port nnnnn: Connection refused > scp: Connection closed > > Many Slackware versions ago I had a doc with all steps in installing and > configuring SSH. That's gone and probably long out of date. > > Should I run ssh-keygen on the desktop, laptop, both? If so, what's the next > step to connect the two hosts? > > TIA, > > Rich > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 17:00:11 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 09:00:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, kenjen at tuta.com wrote: > Can you ping each machine from the other on the ssh port(23, I think)? The default ssh port is 22; as I show in my message ports here are 5 digits. I can ping the desktop from the laptop, but not the other direction. The desktop reports 'destination host unreachable.' Both hosts are, of course, in /etc/hosts. Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 17:03:16 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 09:03:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > I can ping the desktop from the laptop, but not the other direction. The > desktop reports 'destination host unreachable.' I should have mentioned, that the desktop can ping the router and has no problems with accessing the Internet. Rich From robert.citek at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 17:10:22 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 10:10:22 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings, Rich. To troubleshoot, you should use ssh with the -vvv option. Then ? Can you ssh from the desktop to localhost? Can you ssh from the desktop to the desktop?s IP? Can you ssh from the laptop to localhost? Can you ssh from the laptop to the laptop?s IP? Answering those questions will tell us if you have ssh running as a service and accepting in-bound traffic as well as if the ssh client is working. We can then move on to any possible network issues. Regards, - Robert On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 10:00?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, kenjen at tuta.com wrote: > > > Can you ping each machine from the other on the ssh port(23, I think)? > > The default ssh port is 22; as I show in my message ports here are 5 > digits. > > I can ping the desktop from the laptop, but not the other direction. The > desktop reports 'destination host unreachable.' > > Both hosts are, of course, in /etc/hosts. > > Rich > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 18:29:51 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 10:29:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > Can you ssh from the desktop to localhost? Robert, Yes, using my login password. > Can you ssh from the desktop to the desktop?s IP? As above. > Can you ssh from the laptop to localhost? No. > Can you ssh from the laptop to the laptop?s IP? No. Again, cannot ssh from desktop to laptop but can ssh from laptop to desktop. Thanks, Rich From manteyjg at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 18:45:22 2025 From: manteyjg at gmail.com (Johnathan Mantey) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 10:45:22 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have OpenSSH or Dropbear, or whatever SSH server your distro uses? Have you confirmed the sshd is running on your machines? Eg. systemctl status sshd? Have you confirmed any local firewall SW is permitting ssh traffic? On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 9:10?AM Robert Citek wrote: > Greetings, Rich. > > To troubleshoot, you should use ssh with the -vvv option. Then ? > > Can you ssh from the desktop to localhost? > Can you ssh from the desktop to the desktop?s IP? > Can you ssh from the laptop to localhost? > Can you ssh from the laptop to the laptop?s IP? > > Answering those questions will tell us if you have ssh running as a service > and accepting in-bound traffic as well as if the ssh client is working. > > We can then move on to any possible network issues. > > Regards, > - Robert > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 10:00?AM Rich Shepard > wrote: > > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, kenjen at tuta.com wrote: > > > > > Can you ping each machine from the other on the ssh port(23, I think)? > > > > The default ssh port is 22; as I show in my message ports here are 5 > > digits. > > > > I can ping the desktop from the laptop, but not the other direction. The > > desktop reports 'destination host unreachable.' > > > > Both hosts are, of course, in /etc/hosts. > > > > Rich > > > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 18:57:52 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 10:57:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Johnathan Mantey wrote: > Do you have OpenSSH or Dropbear, or whatever SSH server your distro uses? > Have you confirmed the sshd is running on your machines? Eg. systemctl > status sshd? > Have you confirmed any local firewall SW is permitting ssh traffic? Johnathan, Both hosts are on the LAN, sitting next to each other at the moment. Slackware uses OpenSSH; ssh runs constantly on both nodes (that's why the laptop can connect to the desktop.) The network firewall is separate from local hosts. Thanks, Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 19:04:55 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 11:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > I should have mentioned, that the desktop can ping the router and has no > problems with accessing the Internet. I have a vague recollection from years ago that ~/.ssh/known_hosts and/or authorized_keys may be out of date. Since laptop -> desktop connects perhaps the desktop's files need updating. Isn't that something like (from laptop): scp id_ed25519.pub salmo:.ssh/authorized_keys? Rich From techkoenig at protonmail.com Wed Dec 10 19:08:27 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 19:08:27 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If this were a key or authorization issue you would get a different error. Connection refused is networking related. Either it can't find the host or is attempting to connect on the wrong port. Check .ssh/config and your /etc/hosts file for any lingering hostnames or ip addresses -Ben Sent from Proton Mail for Android. -------- Original Message -------- On Wednesday, 12/10/25 at 11:05 Rich Shepard wrote: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > I should have mentioned, that the desktop can ping the router and has no > problems with accessing the Internet. I have a vague recollection from years ago that ~/.ssh/known_hosts and/or authorized_keys may be out of date. Since laptop -> desktop connects perhaps the desktop's files need updating. Isn't that something like (from laptop): scp id_ed25519.pub salmo:.ssh/authorized_keys? Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 19:12:32 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 11:12:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > If this were a key or authorization issue you would get a different error. > Connection refused is networking related. Either it can't find the host or > is attempting to connect on the wrong port. > > Check .ssh/config and your /etc/hosts file for any lingering hostnames or > ip addresses Ben, >From desktop's /etc/hosts: 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 >From desktop's .ssh/config: Host appl-ecosys.com HostName appl-ecosys.com User rshepard Port NNNNN IdentityFile ~/.ssh/id_ed25519.pub Thanks, Rich From techkoenig at protonmail.com Wed Dec 10 19:29:08 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 19:29:08 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Does ping 192.168.55.2 from the desktop work? I'd revert to using IP addresses to try connecting since that avoids hostname complications. e.g. 'ssh 192.168.55.2'. Even if it fails you will get something more descriptive. Also, on the laptop, what is the output of 'ps -A |grep ssh' on your laptop? I wonder if sshd died and needs to be restarted. Connection Refused can also occur if the daemon isn't running. -Ben On Wednesday, December 10th, 2025 at 11:12 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > If this were a key or authorization issue you would get a different error. > > Connection refused is networking related. Either it can't find the host or > > is attempting to connect on the wrong port. > > > > Check .ssh/config and your /etc/hosts file for any lingering hostnames or > > ip addresses > > > Ben, > > From desktop's /etc/hosts: > 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop > 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 > > From desktop's .ssh/config: > Host appl-ecosys.com > HostName appl-ecosys.com > User rshepard > Port NNNNN > IdentityFile ~/.ssh/id_ed25519.pub > > Thanks, > > Rich From kenjen at tuta.com Wed Dec 10 19:29:32 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 20:29:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: My guess is that the SSH traffic is being routed toward the connection refused computer and the connection refused computer needs its firewall configured to allow incoming SSH. I'd check your network routing to ensure SSH traffic is permitted to go to both machines, and to make sure you have no rules redirecting all traffic on that port to one machine. Also, check each machine's network settings to ensure incoming SSH is permitted. The only issue I can imagine after that is user authentication to each machine, so make sure you use the full user at hostname address when specifying users, especially when two machines have users with the same name Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?10? 11:12 ???: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > >> If this were a key or authorization issue you would get a different error. >> Connection refused is networking related. Either it can't find the host or >> is attempting to connect on the wrong port. >> >> Check .ssh/config and your /etc/hosts file for any lingering hostnames or >> ip addresses >> > > Ben, > > From desktop's /etc/hosts: > 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop > 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 > > From desktop's .ssh/config: > Host appl-ecosys.com > HostName appl-ecosys.com > User rshepard > Port NNNNN > IdentityFile ~/.ssh/id_ed25519.pub > > Thanks, > > Rich > From kenjen at tuta.com Wed Dec 10 19:29:32 2025 From: kenjen at tuta.com (kenjen at tuta.com) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 20:29:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: My guess is that the SSH traffic is being routed toward the connection refused computer and the connection refused computer needs its firewall configured to allow incoming SSH. I'd check your network routing to ensure SSH traffic is permitted to go to both machines, and to make sure you have no rules redirecting all traffic on that port to one machine. Also, check each machine's network settings to ensure incoming SSH is permitted. The only issue I can imagine after that is user authentication to each machine, so make sure you use the full user at hostname address when specifying users, especially when two machines have users with the same name Thanks | ???? / ????? | Kiitos | Merci | Gracias | Obrigada | Grazie | ?? | Danke | Wado | ???????, ???????Kenshin, Jenna? "You should be as alive as you can until you're totally dead!" - Dylan Moran 2025?12?10? 11:12 ???: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > >> If this were a key or authorization issue you would get a different error. >> Connection refused is networking related. Either it can't find the host or >> is attempting to connect on the wrong port. >> >> Check .ssh/config and your /etc/hosts file for any lingering hostnames or >> ip addresses >> > > Ben, > > From desktop's /etc/hosts: > 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop > 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 > > From desktop's .ssh/config: > Host appl-ecosys.com > HostName appl-ecosys.com > User rshepard > Port NNNNN > IdentityFile ~/.ssh/id_ed25519.pub > > Thanks, > > Rich > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 20:14:01 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 12:14:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > Does ping 192.168.55.2 from the desktop work? I'd revert to using IP > addresses to try connecting since that avoids hostname complications. e.g. > 'ssh 192.168.55.2'. Even if it fails you will get something more > descriptive. Ping does not work. I just noticed that the laptop's .ssh/config did not exist, so I created one using the desktop's as a model. Still have the issue: $ ssh -vvv caddis OpenSSH_7.4p1, OpenSSL 1.0.2u 20 Dec 2019 debug1: Reading configuration data /home/rshepard/.ssh/config debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh/ssh_config debug2: resolving "caddis" port NNNNN debug2: ssh_connect_direct: needpriv 0 debug1: Connecting to caddis [192.168.55.2] port NNNNN. debug1: connect to address 192.168.55.2 port NNNNN: No route to host ssh: connect to host caddis port NNNNN: No route to host > Also, on the laptop, what is the output of 'ps -A |grep ssh' on your > laptop? 1190 ? 00:00:00 sshd 1317 ? 00:00:00 ssh-agent 2065 ? 00:00:00 ssh-agent > I wonder if sshd died and needs to be restarted. Connection Refused can > also occur if the daemon isn't running. Stopped and started /etc/rc.d/rc.sshd. Same results. Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 20:16:47 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 12:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, kenjen at tuta.com wrote: > My guess is that the SSH traffic is being routed toward the connection > refused computer and the connection refused computer needs its firewall > configured to allow incoming SSH. No LAN host has a firewall configured, other than any Slackware installation default. > I'd check your network routing to ensure SSH traffic is permitted to go to > both machines, and to make sure you have no rules redirecting all traffic > on that port to one machine. As I wrote, the laptop connects to the desktop; it's only the other direction that's not working. Neither computer is external to the LAN. Rich From techkoenig at protonmail.com Wed Dec 10 20:51:51 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 20:51:51 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 10th, 2025 at 12:14 PM, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > Does ping 192.168.55.2 from the desktop work? I'd revert to using IP > > addresses to try connecting since that avoids hostname complications. e.g. > > 'ssh 192.168.55.2'. Even if it fails you will get something more > > descriptive. > > > Ping does not work. On the laptop, what is the output of ifconfig -a? If you can't ping the laptop at 192.168.55.2, then you won't be able to ssh into it. -Ben From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 21:14:47 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 13:14:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > On the laptop, what is the output of ifconfig -a? There is no ifconfig; I don't recall the tool Slackware uses. > If you can't ping the laptop at 192.168.55.2, then you won't be able to > ssh into it. That's true. Rich From michaelewan15 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 21:23:20 2025 From: michaelewan15 at gmail.com (Michael Ewan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 13:23:20 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On recent Linux it is "ip addr". On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 1:16?PM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > On the laptop, what is the output of ifconfig -a? > > There is no ifconfig; I don't recall the tool Slackware uses. > > > If you can't ping the laptop at 192.168.55.2, then you won't be able to > > ssh into it. > > That's true. > > Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 21:28:43 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 13:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > There is no ifconfig; I don't recall the tool Slackware uses. Ben, Mea culpa! I need to be root to run ifconfig or ip. Completely forgot about that. ifconfig -a: # ifconfig -a eth0: flags=4163 mtu 1500 inet 192.168.55.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast 192.168.55.255 inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x20 ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 txqueuelen 1000 (Ethernet) RX packets 7090101 bytes 9694748189 (9.0 GiB) RX errors 0 dropped 31218 overruns 0 frame 0 TX packets 2143332 bytes 267387245 (255.0 MiB) TX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 carrier 0 collisions 0 device memory 0xfc900000-fc91ffff lo: flags=73 mtu 65536 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 255.0.0.0 inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 scopeid 0x10 loop txqueuelen 1000 (Local Loopback) RX packets 88395 bytes 41263177 (39.3 MiB) RX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 frame 0 TX packets 88395 bytes 41263177 (39.3 MiB) TX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 carrier 0 collisions 0 Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 21:29:42 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 13:29:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <8e27fd45-3c50-69b0-edc-aa6d6d35ff7f@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, kenjen at tuta.com wrote: > My guess is that the SSH traffic is being routed toward the connection > refused computer and the connection refused computer needs its firewall > configured to allow incoming SSH. It always has, and on Slackware since 2003. Rich From gary at garrardfamily.us Wed Dec 10 21:41:23 2025 From: gary at garrardfamily.us (gary at garrardfamily.us) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 13:41:23 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> On Wed, 2025-12-10 at 13:28 -0800, Rich Shepard wrote: > > Ben, > > Mea culpa! I need to be root to run ifconfig or ip. Completely forgot > about > that. > > ifconfig -a: > # ifconfig -a > eth0: flags=4163? mtu 1500 > ???????? inet 192.168.55.1? netmask 255.255.255.0? broadcast > 192.168.55.255 > ???????? inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27? prefixlen 64? scopeid > 0x20 > ???????? ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27? txqueuelen 1000? (Ethernet) > ???????? RX packets 7090101? bytes 9694748189 (9.0 GiB) > ???????? RX errors 0? dropped 31218? overruns 0? frame 0 > ???????? TX packets 2143332? bytes 267387245 (255.0 MiB) > ???????? TX errors 0? dropped 0 overruns 0? carrier 0? collisions 0 > ???????? device memory 0xfc900000-fc91ffff > Richard, Is that on the desktop or the laptop? Gary From russell at personaltelco.net Wed Dec 10 22:39:21 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 14:39:21 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: > If you can't ping the laptop at 192.168.55.2, then you won't be able to ssh into it. That's usually true, but sometimes, surprisingly, not necessarily true. Because of ICMP eating network intermediaries, sometimes you can't ping, but can reach a destination using other protocols. This is almost certainly not germane to Rich's problem. -- Russell From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 22:40:51 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 14:40:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, gary at garrardfamily.us wrote: >> ifconfig -a: >> # ifconfig -a >> eth0: flags=4163? mtu 1500 >> ???????? inet 192.168.55.1? netmask 255.255.255.0? broadcast >> 192.168.55.255 >> ???????? inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27? prefixlen 64? scopeid >> 0x20 >> ???????? ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27? txqueuelen 1000? (Ethernet) >> ???????? RX packets 7090101? bytes 9694748189 (9.0 GiB) >> ???????? RX errors 0? dropped 31218? overruns 0? frame 0 >> ???????? TX packets 2143332? bytes 267387245 (255.0 MiB) >> ???????? TX errors 0? dropped 0 overruns 0? carrier 0? collisions 0 >> ???????? device memory 0xfc900000-fc91ffff > Is that on the desktop or the laptop? Gary, The desktop. The laptop's the same. Rich From russell at personaltelco.net Wed Dec 10 22:45:35 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 14:45:35 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> Message-ID: You can get a shell on both devices? On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 2:40?PM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, gary at garrardfamily.us wrote: > > >> ifconfig -a: > >> # ifconfig -a > >> eth0: flags=4163 mtu 1500 > >> inet 192.168.55.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast > >> 192.168.55.255 > >> inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27 prefixlen 64 scopeid > >> 0x20 > >> ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 txqueuelen 1000 (Ethernet) > >> RX packets 7090101 bytes 9694748189 (9.0 GiB) > >> RX errors 0 dropped 31218 overruns 0 frame 0 > >> TX packets 2143332 bytes 267387245 (255.0 MiB) > >> TX errors 0 dropped 0 overruns 0 carrier 0 collisions 0 > >> device memory 0xfc900000-fc91ffff > > > Is that on the desktop or the laptop? > > Gary, > > The desktop. The laptop's the same. > > Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 22:50:53 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 14:50:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> Message-ID: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > You can get a shell on both devices? Russell, I boot into a console on all hosts, then run 'startx' and work mostly in virtual terminals. Does this answer your question? Rich From russell at personaltelco.net Wed Dec 10 23:01:44 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 15:01:44 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: For each device, show the output of: hostname && ip a && ping -c1 && ip n where is the other host name. On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 2:50?PM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > You can get a shell on both devices? > > Russell, > > I boot into a console on all hosts, then run 'startx' and work mostly in > virtual terminals. Does this answer your question? > > Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Wed Dec 10 23:31:06 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 15:31:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > For each device, show the output of: > hostname && ip a && ping -c1 && ip n > where is the other host name. As root: # hostname && ip a && ping -c1 && caddis && ip n salmo 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 ::1/128 scope host valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 link/ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff inet 192.168.55.1/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global eth0 valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27/64 scope link valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever Usage: ping [-aAbBdDfhLnOqrRUvV] [-c count] [-i interval] [-I interface] [-m mark] [-M pmtudisc_option] [-l preload] [-p pattern] [-Q tos] [-s packetsize] [-S sndbuf] [-t ttl] [-T timestamp_option] [-w deadline] [-W timeout] [hop1 ...] destination On the laptop I run the command as root in a v.t. When I try highlighting it and copying output to a text file in anther v.t. it won't copy. But, the laptop can ssh into the desktop; it's the other direction that won't work. Rich From russell at personaltelco.net Wed Dec 10 23:36:58 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 15:36:58 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: There shouldn't be an && between the ping and "caddis". Please try again. You can capture the output on caddis like this: ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt Maybe you can move the resulting file to someplace you can cut/paste. On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 3:31?PM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > For each device, show the output of: > > hostname && ip a && ping -c1 && ip n > > where is the other host name. > > As root: > # hostname && ip a && ping -c1 && caddis && ip n > salmo > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.1/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global eth0 > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27/64 scope link > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > Usage: ping [-aAbBdDfhLnOqrRUvV] [-c count] [-i interval] [-I interface] > [-m mark] [-M pmtudisc_option] [-l preload] [-p pattern] [-Q tos] > [-s packetsize] [-S sndbuf] [-t ttl] [-T timestamp_option] > [-w deadline] [-W timeout] [hop1 ...] destination > > On the laptop I run the command as root in a v.t. When I try highlighting it > and copying output to a text file in anther v.t. it won't copy. > > But, the laptop can ssh into the desktop; it's the other direction that > won't work. > > Rich From robert.citek at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:12:12 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 09:12:12 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2025 at 11:50?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > > > Can you ssh from the desktop to localhost? > > Robert, > > Yes, using my login password. > > > Can you ssh from the desktop to the desktop?s IP? > > As above. > > > Can you ssh from the laptop to localhost? > > No. > > > Can you ssh from the laptop to the laptop?s IP? > > No. > > Again, cannot ssh from desktop to laptop but can ssh from laptop to > desktop. Just to confirm your ?No? answers, running this command on the desktop does work but on the laptop does not work: $ ssh -vvv localhost Regards, - Robert From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 16:27:07 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 08:27:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1eceb651-9aa9-15b8-dc23-753c6e5d6555@appl-ecosys.com> On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > Just to confirm your ?No? answers, running this command on the desktop does > work but on the laptop does not work: > > $ ssh -vvv localhost Robert, Nope. I must have mis-typed something yesterday and didn't notice. Works fine on both, while on the desktop I'm asked to `Enter passphrase for key '/home/rshepard/.ssh/id_ed25519':'. Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 16:35:02 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 08:35:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > There shouldn't be an && between the ping and "caddis". Please try again. > You can capture the output on caddis like this: > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt Russell, Did this. Yesterday caddis -> salmo connected; just now it fails: `connect to host salmo port NNNNN: Connection refused. And, salmo -> caddis fails: `ssh: connect to host caddis port 14982: No route to host lost connection'. Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 16:39:04 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt caddis.appl-ecosys.com 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 ::1/128 scope host valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever 2: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 link/ether a4:4e:31:a3:05:58 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff inet 192.168.55.111/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic noprefixroute wlan0 valid_lft 85900sec preferred_lft 85900sec inet6 fe80::5747:a646:5cd8:a346/64 scope link noprefixroute valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP group default qlen 1000 link/ether 28:d2:44:2e:b4:62 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff inet 192.168.55.112/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic noprefixroute eth0 valid_lft 85899sec preferred_lft 85899sec inet6 fe80::73b6:7e97:9b2c:1f06/64 scope link noprefixroute valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever PING salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.830 ms --- salmo.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.830/0.830/0.830/0.000 ms 192.168.55.4 dev eth0 lladdr 74:83:c2:49:2b:61 STALE 192.168.55.1 dev eth0 lladdr 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 REACHABLE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev wlan0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev eth0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE Rich From techkoenig at protonmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:50:14 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 16:50:14 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> References: <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, December 11th, 2025 at 8:39 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt > > > caddis.appl-ecosys.com > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 > > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 2: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 > > link/ether a4:4e:31:a3:05:58 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.111/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic noprefixroute wlan0 > valid_lft 85900sec preferred_lft 85900sec > inet6 fe80::5747:a646:5cd8:a346/64 scope link noprefixroute > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP group default qlen 1000 > > link/ether 28:d2:44:2e:b4:62 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.112/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic noprefixroute eth0 > valid_lft 85899sec preferred_lft 85899sec > inet6 fe80::73b6:7e97:9b2c:1f06/64 scope link noprefixroute > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > PING salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) 56(84) bytes of data. > 64 bytes from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.830 ms > > --- salmo.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.830/0.830/0.830/0.000 ms > 192.168.55.4 dev eth0 lladdr 74:83:c2:49:2b:61 STALE > 192.168.55.1 dev eth0 lladdr 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 REACHABLE > fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev wlan0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev eth0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > > Rich Rich, In an earlier post you mentioned that caddis has an IP address of 192.168.55.2. This was showing in your /etc/hosts file. According to the output of ip above, caddis has 2 IP addresses: Ethernet: 192.168.55.112 wifi: 192.168.55.111 I think you have been connecting to the wrong device. As a test, try the following ssh command from your desktop (salmo): ssh 192.168.55.111 If that fails, try this one ssh 192.168.55.112 -Ben From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 18:18:08 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 10:18:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > In an earlier post you mentioned that caddis has an IP address of > 192.168.55.2. This was showing in your /etc/hosts file. > > According to the output of ip above, caddis has 2 IP addresses: > > Ethernet: 192.168.55.112 > wifi: 192.168.55.111 Ben, I saw that but it makes no sense to me. $ less /etc/hosts: 127.0.0.1 localhost.localdomain localhost 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 192.168.55.3 baetis.appl-ecosys.com baetis # newer desktop 192.168.55.4 router1.appl-ecosys.com router1 # Edge Router-X 192.168.55.5 lemna.appl-ecosys.com lemna 192.168.55.10 packy.appl-ecosys.com packy # HP laptop 192.168.55.150 ata.appl-ecosys.com ata 192.168.55.192 lj5.appl-ecosys.com lj5 192.168.55.194 colorp.appl-ecosys.com colorp 192.168.55.200 wap.appl-ecosys.com wap # End of hosts. > I think you have been connecting to the wrong device. As a test, try the > following ssh command from your desktop (salmo): > ssh 192.168.55.111 > If that fails, try this one > ssh 192.168.55.112 $ ssh 192.168.55.111 ssh: connect to host 192.168.55.111 port 14982: No route to host $ ssh 192.168.55.112 ssh: connect to host 192.168.55.112 port 14982: No route to host $ ^C No response for the latter. Rich From techkoenig at protonmail.com Thu Dec 11 18:49:48 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 18:49:48 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, December 11th, 2025 at 10:18 AM, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > In an earlier post you mentioned that caddis has an IP address of > > 192.168.55.2. This was showing in your /etc/hosts file. > > > > According to the output of ip above, caddis has 2 IP addresses: > > > > Ethernet: 192.168.55.112 > > wifi: 192.168.55.111 > > > Ben, > > I saw that but it makes no sense to me. > > $ less /etc/hosts: > 127.0.0.1 localhost.localdomain localhost > 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop > 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 > 192.168.55.3 baetis.appl-ecosys.com baetis # newer desktop > 192.168.55.4 router1.appl-ecosys.com router1 # Edge Router-X > 192.168.55.5 lemna.appl-ecosys.com lemna > 192.168.55.10 packy.appl-ecosys.com packy # HP laptop > 192.168.55.150 ata.appl-ecosys.com ata > 192.168.55.192 lj5.appl-ecosys.com lj5 > 192.168.55.194 colorp.appl-ecosys.com colorp > 192.168.55.200 wap.appl-ecosys.com wap > # End of hosts. > > > I think you have been connecting to the wrong device. As a test, try the > > following ssh command from your desktop (salmo): > > ssh 192.168.55.111 > > If that fails, try this one > > ssh 192.168.55.112 > > > $ ssh 192.168.55.111 > ssh: connect to host 192.168.55.111 port 14982: No route to host > $ ssh 192.168.55.112 > ssh: connect to host 192.168.55.112 port 14982: No route to host > $ ^C > > No response for the latter. > > Rich That's really weird. I wonder what got buggered up. This probably means you need to simplify the network config of the laptop and verify bare minimum functionality. Try disabling your wifi connection so that we are using ethernet only, and then reconnect the ethernet cable to make sure it gets a fresh link. Then restart sshd with '/etc/rc.d/rc.sshd restart'. Next, verify that sshd is listening on the correct port with 'lsof -i tcp:22'. Example output from my machine with default sshd.conf bash-5.3# lsof -i tcp:22 COMMAND PID USER FD TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME sshd 1671 root 6u IPv4 11119 0t0 TCP *:ssh (LISTEN) sshd 1671 root 7u IPv6 11121 0t0 TCP *:ssh (LISTEN) You should see something similar to the above. At this point, if everything looks happy, try to ssh into the laptop, FROM THE LAPTOP. This merely a test to verify that sshd is actually responding to connections. If everything so far works, then the next step is to figure out which IP address your laptop has been assigned on the network. Note these steps are of an investigational nature. They are not intended to be a solution, merely an attempt to isolate the point of failure. -Ben From russell at pdxlinux.org Thu Dec 11 19:25:43 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 11:25:43 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> References: <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/25 08:39, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > >> ?( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > >> /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt > > caddis.appl-ecosys.com > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN > group default qlen 1000 > ??? link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > ??? inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > ?????? valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > ??? inet6 ::1/128 scope host > ?????? valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 2: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP > group default qlen 1000 > ??? link/ether a4:4e:31:a3:05:58 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > ??? inet 192.168.55.111/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic > noprefixroute wlan0 > ?????? valid_lft 85900sec preferred_lft 85900sec > ??? inet6 fe80::5747:a646:5cd8:a346/64 scope link noprefixroute > ?????? valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast > state UP group default qlen 1000 > ??? link/ether 28:d2:44:2e:b4:62 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > ??? inet 192.168.55.112/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic > noprefixroute eth0 > ?????? valid_lft 85899sec preferred_lft 85899sec > ??? inet6 fe80::73b6:7e97:9b2c:1f06/64 scope link noprefixroute > ?????? valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > PING salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) 56(84) bytes of data. > 64 bytes from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 > time=0.830 ms > > --- salmo.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.830/0.830/0.830/0.000 ms > 192.168.55.4 dev eth0 lladdr 74:83:c2:49:2b:61 STALE 192.168.55.1 dev > eth0 lladdr 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 REACHABLE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev > wlan0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 > dev eth0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > > Rich Okay, now do the equivalent from the other side: ?? ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt -- Russell From robert.citek at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 19:58:15 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 12:58:15 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Since I don't use Slackware regularly, I wanted to confirm that ssh'ing between two different slackware versions can be done. So I used docker compose to create two separate docker containers: one running slackware 14.2 and the other running slackware 15.0. Here are my notes as a GitHub gist: https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/24e0a108e4cc251a60119b581706368b I ran this in a GitHub Codespace and on my local system. In both environments, ssh'ing between them worked just fine. Regards, - Robert On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 12:26?PM Russell Senior wrote: > > > On 12/11/25 08:39, Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > >> ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > > >> /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt > > > > caddis.appl-ecosys.com > > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN > > group default qlen 1000 > > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > 2: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP > > group default qlen 1000 > > link/ether a4:4e:31:a3:05:58 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > > inet 192.168.55.111/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic > > noprefixroute wlan0 > > valid_lft 85900sec preferred_lft 85900sec > > inet6 fe80::5747:a646:5cd8:a346/64 scope link noprefixroute > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast > > state UP group default qlen 1000 > > link/ether 28:d2:44:2e:b4:62 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > > inet 192.168.55.112/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic > > noprefixroute eth0 > > valid_lft 85899sec preferred_lft 85899sec > > inet6 fe80::73b6:7e97:9b2c:1f06/64 scope link noprefixroute > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > PING salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) 56(84) bytes of data. > > 64 bytes from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 > > time=0.830 ms > > > > --- salmo.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > > 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms > > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.830/0.830/0.830/0.000 ms > > 192.168.55.4 dev eth0 lladdr 74:83:c2:49:2b:61 STALE 192.168.55.1 dev > > eth0 lladdr 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 REACHABLE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev > > wlan0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 > > dev eth0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > > > > Rich > > Okay, now do the equivalent from the other side: > > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt > > -- > Russell > > > From techkoenig at protonmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:16:54 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 20:16:54 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: I think in this case there is some confusion about which IP address goes with which host. Rich has an old-school /etc/hosts file to map hostnames to addresses (as shown in a previous email), but it's not matching the output of ip or ifconfig (as shown in a previous email). It's a difficult thing to troubleshoot remotely without intimate knowledge of how this particular network is configured. which hosts are static vs dhcp, which hosts work vs which ones don't, and which network management daemons are in use. by default slackware uses an rc.inet1 script to define IP addresses at boot time, but networkmanager is available for devices that need more dynamic control (laptops). I don't know which he is using. I strongly suspect that the laptop has obtained an address via DHCP and is therefore not being properly tracked by /etc/hosts in addition to any host stanzas in .ssh/config. These outdated config options probably need to be cleared out. This would also explain why laptop->desktop works. The desktop is a static system that doesn't move around as much. The laptop is on the correct subnet, but the IP is floating around in accordance with the router's DHCP policy. Or there's a typo somewhere. -Ben On Thursday, December 11th, 2025 at 11:58 AM, Robert Citek wrote: > Since I don't use Slackware regularly, I wanted to confirm that ssh'ing > between two different slackware versions can be done. So I used docker > compose to create two separate docker containers: one running slackware > 14.2 and the other running slackware 15.0. > > Here are my notes as a GitHub gist: > > https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/24e0a108e4cc251a60119b581706368b > > I ran this in a GitHub Codespace and on my local system. In both > environments, ssh'ing between them worked just fine. > > Regards, > - Robert > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 12:26?PM Russell Senior russell at pdxlinux.org > > wrote: > > > On 12/11/25 08:39, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > > > > > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > > > > > /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt > > > > > > caddis.appl-ecosys.com > > > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN > > > group default qlen 1000 > > > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > > > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > > 2: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP > > > group default qlen 1000 > > > link/ether a4:4e:31:a3:05:58 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > > > inet 192.168.55.111/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic > > > noprefixroute wlan0 > > > valid_lft 85900sec preferred_lft 85900sec > > > inet6 fe80::5747:a646:5cd8:a346/64 scope link noprefixroute > > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > > 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast > > > state UP group default qlen 1000 > > > link/ether 28:d2:44:2e:b4:62 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > > > inet 192.168.55.112/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic > > > noprefixroute eth0 > > > valid_lft 85899sec preferred_lft 85899sec > > > inet6 fe80::73b6:7e97:9b2c:1f06/64 scope link noprefixroute > > > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > > PING salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) 56(84) bytes of data. > > > 64 bytes from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 > > > time=0.830 ms > > > > > > --- salmo.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > > > 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms > > > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.830/0.830/0.830/0.000 ms > > > 192.168.55.4 dev eth0 lladdr 74:83:c2:49:2b:61 STALE 192.168.55.1 dev > > > eth0 lladdr 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 REACHABLE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev > > > wlan0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 > > > dev eth0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > > > > > > Rich > > > > Okay, now do the equivalent from the other side: > > > > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > > > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt > > > > -- > > Russell From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 22:58:01 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 14:58:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <1933cdbf-52ee-fbb1-356f-a2e0dd8eb240@appl-ecosys.com> On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > That's really weird. I wonder what got buggered up. This probably means > you need to simplify the network config of the laptop and verify bare > minimum functionality. > > Try disabling your wifi connection so that we are using ethernet only, and > then reconnect the ethernet cable to make sure it gets a fresh link. The laptop is connected via Ethernet, not wifi. The Lenovo ThinkPad T430 is being obstinate. Pressing Fn+F5 does not turn off the radio. Feh! > Next, verify that sshd is listening on the correct port with 'lsof -i > tcp:22'. Example output from my machine with default sshd.conf I don't use port 22. Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 23:01:12 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 15:01:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > Okay, now do the equivalent from the other side: > ?? ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt salmo 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 ::1/128 scope host valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 link/ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff inet 192.168.55.1/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global eth0 valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27/64 scope link valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever PING caddis.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.2) 56(84) bytes of data. >From salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable --- caddis.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 0 received, +1 errors, 100% packet loss, time 0ms Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 11 23:07:41 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 15:07:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <1933cdbf-52ee-fbb1-356f-a2e0dd8eb240@appl-ecosys.com> References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> <1933cdbf-52ee-fbb1-356f-a2e0dd8eb240@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > The laptop is connected via Ethernet, not wifi. The Lenovo ThinkPad T430 is > being obstinate. Pressing Fn+F5 does not turn off the radio. Feh! Oops! The function key doesn't work, but the little switch on the right side does. # lsof -i tcp:NNNNN COMMAND PID USER FD TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME sshd 23163 root 3u IPv4 828871 0t0 TCP *:14982 (LISTEN) sshd 23163 root 4u IPv6 828873 0t0 TCP *:14982 (LISTEN) Rich From techkoenig at protonmail.com Thu Dec 11 23:33:54 2025 From: techkoenig at protonmail.com (Ben Koenig) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 23:33:54 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> <1933cdbf-52ee-fbb1-356f-a2e0dd8eb240@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, December 11th, 2025 at 3:07 PM, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > The laptop is connected via Ethernet, not wifi. The Lenovo ThinkPad T430 is > > being obstinate. Pressing Fn+F5 does not turn off the radio. Feh! > > > Oops! The function key doesn't work, but the little switch on the right side > does. > > # lsof -i tcp:NNNNN > COMMAND PID USER FD TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME > sshd 23163 root 3u IPv4 828871 0t0 TCP *:14982 (LISTEN) > sshd 23163 root 4u IPv6 828873 0t0 TCP *:14982 (LISTEN) > > Rich Cool, so it is running, but when you test it you need to use the -p argument. ssh -p This is probably specified in your .ssh/config, but you can override it for testing. -Ben From russell at personaltelco.net Fri Dec 12 00:04:28 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 16:04:28 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <1933cdbf-52ee-fbb1-356f-a2e0dd8eb240@appl-ecosys.com> References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> <1933cdbf-52ee-fbb1-356f-a2e0dd8eb240@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 2:58?PM Rich Shepard wrote: > The laptop is connected via Ethernet, not wifi. The Lenovo ThinkPad T430 is > being obstinate. Pressing Fn+F5 does not turn off the radio. Feh! The "ip a" you reported says different. It shows IP addresses on both interfaces on the same network. That's almost certainly the cause of your problem. From russell at personaltelco.net Fri Dec 12 00:06:20 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 16:06:20 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: You didn't paste the results of the "ip n" command, at the bottom. The "ip n" command is the modern equivalent of arp, but works for ipv6 also. In any case, the results are potentially important, which is why I asked for it. On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 3:01?PM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > Okay, now do the equivalent from the other side: > > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt > > salmo > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.1/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global eth0 > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27/64 scope link > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > PING caddis.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.2) 56(84) bytes of data. > From salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable > > --- caddis.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > 1 packets transmitted, 0 received, +1 errors, 100% packet loss, time 0ms > > Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Fri Dec 12 13:36:00 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 05:36:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: Russell, # ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt $ less /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt salmo 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 ::1/128 scope host valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 link/ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff inet 192.168.55.1/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global eth0 valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27/64 scope link valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever PING caddis.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.2) 56(84) bytes of data. >From salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable --- caddis.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 0 received, +1 errors, 100% packet loss, time 0ms Rich From robert.citek at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 17:36:00 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 10:36:00 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Seems like there are a lot of moving parts to this puzzle. Is there any chance to simplify your setup to get something working? For example: - disconnect the laptop and desktop from the network - directly connect the desktop to the laptop with an ethernet cable ( most/all NICs have Auto MDI-X these days ) - assign static IPs to both devices, if they aren't already ( e.g. 10.20.30.41 and 10.20.30.42 ) - turn off all firewall rules Test your connection with ping, nmap, and then your ssh process using IPs. If any of those do not work, the search space is very small. If it does work, start adding one piece at a time back in: change back IPs, use hostnames, turn on the firewall, reconnect to the switch/router, etc. until you discover the step at which things don't work any more. Just one in a sea of possible solutions. Regards, - Robert On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 6:36?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > Russell, > > # ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 caddis && ip n ) > > /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt > > $ less /tmp/salmo-to-caddis.txt > salmo > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group > default qlen 1000 > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP > group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.1/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global eth0 > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 fe80::e9d:92ff:fe83:6e27/64 scope link > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > PING caddis.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.2) 56(84) bytes of data. > From salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) icmp_seq=1 Destination Host > Unreachable > > --- caddis.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > 1 packets transmitted, 0 received, +1 errors, 100% packet loss, time 0ms > > Rich > > From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Fri Dec 12 17:44:00 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > Seems like there are a lot of moving parts to this puzzle. Is there any > chance to simplify your setup to get something working? Robert, Will get to this soon. Thanks, Rich From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Fri Dec 12 19:15:17 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:15:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused [ON HOLD] In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <38c57a2-6b54-263d-c7b6-b0afff78ff9@appl-ecosys.com> On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > Will get to this soon. Thinking how this issue has puzzled everyone and has not been resolved the way such issues were in the past, when all hosts were running the same Slackware version, it may well be due to version issues. Therefore, I'm putting this on hold and focusing on configuring all core applications I use on the 500G NVMe which has 15.0 installed. In the meantime I'll use the time-proven sneaker-net moving a USB flash drive between the desktop and the laptop. Happy holidays everyone! Thanks again, Rich From plug at the-wes.com Fri Dec 12 19:29:36 2025 From: plug at the-wes.com (wes) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:29:36 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused [ON HOLD] In-Reply-To: <38c57a2-6b54-263d-c7b6-b0afff78ff9@appl-ecosys.com> References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> <38c57a2-6b54-263d-c7b6-b0afff78ff9@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 11:15?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > Will get to this soon. > > Thinking how this issue has puzzled everyone and has not been resolved the > way such issues were in the past, when all hosts were running the same > Slackware version, it may well be due to version issues. > > it is not a version issue. it's a network issue. I think it would be worth a try to reboot your router. In the meantime I'll use the time-proven sneaker-net moving a USB flash > drive between the desktop and the laptop. > > since you can connect to the desktop from the laptop, you can initiate file transfers in either direction. scp salmo:/path/to/file ./file scp ./file salmo:/path/to/file this does involve knowing the path on salmo while typing on caddis, which can sometimes be more complicated to get correct than just copying to usb. every method has its place and time. -wes From drl at drloree.com Fri Dec 12 19:59:55 2025 From: drl at drloree.com (Derek Loree) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:59:55 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused [ON HOLD] In-Reply-To: References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> <38c57a2-6b54-263d-c7b6-b0afff78ff9@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <20251212115955.b79ed9463526c4ee46150e6d@drloree.com> On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:29:36 -0800 wes wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 11:15?AM Rich Shepard > wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > > > Will get to this soon. > > > > Thinking how this issue has puzzled everyone and has not been resolved the > > way such issues were in the past, when all hosts were running the same > > Slackware version, it may well be due to version issues. > > > > > it is not a version issue. it's a network issue. I think it would be worth > a try to reboot your router. I agree that this is most likely not a version issue, but a configuration issue. Since your hosts files are not accurate, you should use IP adresses instead of hostnames if you decide to keep trying. > > In the meantime I'll use the time-proven sneaker-net moving a USB flash > > drive between the desktop and the laptop. > > > > > since you can connect to the desktop from the laptop, you can initiate file > transfers in either direction. > > scp salmo:/path/to/file ./file > scp ./file salmo:/path/to/file > > this does involve knowing the path on salmo while typing on caddis, which > can sometimes be more complicated to get correct than just copying to usb. > every method has its place and time. If you use "sftp" it can list directories and change directories, then allow you to "put" or "get" files. sftp -PNNNN salmo ###NNNN is your ssh port "lcd directoryname" to change local directory "cd directoryname" to change remote directory "lls" to list the local working directory "ls" to list the remote working directory "put filename" to copy from local to remote "get filename" to copy from remote to local "quit" to logout Regular expressions can be used to copy multiple files at once. Good Luck -- Derek Loree From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Fri Dec 12 20:35:38 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 12:35:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused [ON HOLD] In-Reply-To: References: <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> <38c57a2-6b54-263d-c7b6-b0afff78ff9@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <189f6543-11ef-56e4-c169-ba60bfb3b798@appl-ecosys.com> On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, wes wrote: > it is not a version issue. it's a network issue. I think it would be worth > a try to reboot your router. Wes, Okay. > since you can connect to the desktop from the laptop, you can initiate file > transfers in either direction. > > scp salmo:/path/to/file ./file > scp ./file salmo:/path/to/file > > this does involve knowing the path on salmo while typing on caddis, which > can sometimes be more complicated to get correct than just copying to usb. > every method has its place and time. Thanks, Rich From bioborg at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 22:40:33 2025 From: bioborg at gmail.com (Nat Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 14:40:33 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: A quick and easy alternate solution would be to install LocalSend on both machines. It?s not ssh but you should be transferring files in no time. On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 9:44?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > > > Seems like there are a lot of moving parts to this puzzle. Is there any > > chance to simplify your setup to get something working? > > Robert, > > Will get to this soon. > > Thanks, > > Rich > From plug at the-wes.com Fri Dec 12 22:47:21 2025 From: plug at the-wes.com (wes) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 14:47:21 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: that appears to be peer-to-peer. as such, it would not work with the issue rich is experiencing ("no route to host") -wes On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 2:40?PM Nat Taylor wrote: > A quick and easy alternate solution would be to install LocalSend on both > machines. It?s not ssh but you should be transferring files in no time. > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 9:44?AM Rich Shepard > wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > > > > > Seems like there are a lot of moving parts to this puzzle. Is there > any > > > chance to simplify your setup to get something working? > > > > Robert, > > > > Will get to this soon. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rich > > > From bioborg at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 22:49:43 2025 From: bioborg at gmail.com (Nat Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 14:49:43 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> References: <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <287ab68d-6395-3f26-3892-64fafb27f465@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: What machine is this /etc/hosts from? Have you looked in your router for a list of connected devices and IPs? Is that where your dns is being resolved or is it from salmo? On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 10:19?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2025, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > In an earlier post you mentioned that caddis has an IP address of > > 192.168.55.2. This was showing in your /etc/hosts file. > > > > According to the output of ip above, caddis has 2 IP addresses: > > > > Ethernet: 192.168.55.112 > > wifi: 192.168.55.111 > > Ben, > > I saw that but it makes no sense to me. > > $ less /etc/hosts: > 127.0.0.1 localhost.localdomain localhost > 192.168.55.1 salmo.appl-ecosys.com salmo mail # older desktop > 192.168.55.2 caddis.appl-ecosys.com caddis # Lenovo ThinkPad T430 > 192.168.55.3 baetis.appl-ecosys.com baetis # newer desktop > 192.168.55.4 router1.appl-ecosys.com router1 # Edge Router-X > 192.168.55.5 lemna.appl-ecosys.com lemna > 192.168.55.10 packy.appl-ecosys.com packy # HP laptop > 192.168.55.150 ata.appl-ecosys.com ata > 192.168.55.192 lj5.appl-ecosys.com lj5 > 192.168.55.194 colorp.appl-ecosys.com colorp > 192.168.55.200 wap.appl-ecosys.com wap > # End of hosts. > > > I think you have been connecting to the wrong device. As a test, try the > > following ssh command from your desktop (salmo): > > ssh 192.168.55.111 > > If that fails, try this one > > ssh 192.168.55.112 > > $ ssh 192.168.55.111 > ssh: connect to host 192.168.55.111 port 14982: No route to host > $ ssh 192.168.55.112 > ssh: connect to host 192.168.55.112 port 14982: No route to host > $ ^C > > No response for the latter. > > Rich > From bioborg at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 22:52:30 2025 From: bioborg at gmail.com (Nat Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 14:52:30 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: no route to *that specified* host. I think it would be worth a try to see if it?s avahi or whatever it?s using can find the other client running the software through whatever network they n consistency is causing the problem On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 2:48?PM wes wrote: > that appears to be peer-to-peer. as such, it would not work with the issue > rich is experiencing ("no route to host") > > -wes > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 2:40?PM Nat Taylor wrote: > > > A quick and easy alternate solution would be to install LocalSend on both > > machines. It?s not ssh but you should be transferring files in no time. > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 9:44?AM Rich Shepard > > wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: > > > > > > > Seems like there are a lot of moving parts to this puzzle. Is there > > any > > > > chance to simplify your setup to get something working? > > > > > > Robert, > > > > > > Will get to this soon. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > From john.bartley at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 03:47:49 2025 From: john.bartley at gmail.com (John Bartley) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 19:47:49 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Linux... For... Spaaaaaace! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://thenewstack.io/papermoon-a-space-grade-linux-for-the-newspace-era/ -- -- 73/Best regards de John Bartley K7AAY CN85oj @503bartley.pdx.social @503bartley.bsky.social From bioborg at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 05:28:22 2025 From: bioborg at gmail.com (Nat Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 21:28:22 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> <20522c7b-fe8-8da7-34f1-c3ea4a117634@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: ?Network inconsistency ? On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 2:52?PM Nat Taylor wrote: > no route to *that specified* host. I think it would be worth a try to see > if it?s avahi or whatever it?s using can find the other client running the > software through whatever network they n consistency is causing the problem > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 2:48?PM wes wrote: > >> that appears to be peer-to-peer. as such, it would not work with the issue >> rich is experiencing ("no route to host") >> >> -wes >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 2:40?PM Nat Taylor wrote: >> >> > A quick and easy alternate solution would be to install LocalSend on >> both >> > machines. It?s not ssh but you should be transferring files in no time. >> > >> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 9:44?AM Rich Shepard >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On Fri, 12 Dec 2025, Robert Citek wrote: >> > > >> > > > Seems like there are a lot of moving parts to this puzzle. Is there >> > any >> > > > chance to simplify your setup to get something working? >> > > >> > > Robert, >> > > >> > > Will get to this soon. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Rich >> > > >> > >> > From russell at personaltelco.net Sat Dec 13 06:23:25 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 22:23:25 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Linux... For... Spaaaaaace! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fwiw, PSAS/OreSat has been putting linux into space for a few years, long enough ago one of the satellites has de-orbited. https://www.oresat.org/ -- Russell Senior russell at personaltelco.net On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 7:48?PM John Bartley wrote: > > https://thenewstack.io/papermoon-a-space-grade-linux-for-the-newspace-era/ > -- -- > 73/Best regards de John Bartley K7AAY CN85oj @503bartley.pdx.social > @503bartley.bsky.social From russell at personaltelco.net Sat Dec 13 10:25:09 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 02:25:09 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Well, there's your problem right there! The host 'caddis' doesn't have the ip address you think it should. This is partly due to your Resistance To Sensible Advice?. Instead of using an /etc/hosts to locally and brittlely point at a static IP address, you should rely on DNS and DHCP. You can tell your DHCP server to always give the same IP address to caddis's eth0 interface. And you can tell DNS to return that IP address when it is queried. If your DHCP/DNS server is the same software (e.g. dnsmasq), the configuration is super easy. Going caddis --> salmo works because salmo doesn't care what ip address caddis has. Caddis has the right ip address for salmo. However, when salmo tries to connect to caddis, it tries 192.168.55.2 (from /etc/hosts) and NOTHING LIVES THERE, SO IT FAILS. Caddis ignores it, because .2 isn't one of its addresses. Caddis is getting its IP addresses from DHCP, which is honestly the SENSIBLE thing for it to do. It is a laptop. It moves around between different networks, having a static IP configuration will make it not work when you take it somewhere else. The SENSIBLE thing to do (as I said above) is to have the local DHCP server offer the expected ip address when caddis asks for one. That way, caddis works wherever you take it. And when it is connected to the network salmo is on, it gets an ip address that other hosts expect or can resolve with network wide DNS. As a secondary problem, having two interfaces (wlan0 and eth0) on the same network can lead to non-workingness, so yeah, you should turn off wifi if you are connected to ethernet too. On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 8:39?AM Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2025, Russell Senior wrote: > > > ( hostname && ip a && ping -c1 salmo && ip n ) > /tmp/caddis-to-salmo.txt > > caddis.appl-ecosys.com > 1: lo: mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group default qlen 1000 > link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 > inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > inet6 ::1/128 scope host > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 2: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP group default qlen 1000 > link/ether a4:4e:31:a3:05:58 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.111/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic noprefixroute wlan0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NOT 192.168.55.2 > valid_lft 85900sec preferred_lft 85900sec > inet6 fe80::5747:a646:5cd8:a346/64 scope link noprefixroute > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 28:d2:44:2e:b4:62 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.55.112/24 brd 192.168.55.255 scope global dynamic noprefixroute eth0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NOT 192.168.55.2 > valid_lft 85899sec preferred_lft 85899sec > inet6 fe80::73b6:7e97:9b2c:1f06/64 scope link noprefixroute > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > PING salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1) 56(84) bytes of data. > 64 bytes from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (192.168.55.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.830 ms > > --- salmo.appl-ecosys.com ping statistics --- > 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.830/0.830/0.830/0.000 ms > 192.168.55.4 dev eth0 lladdr 74:83:c2:49:2b:61 STALE > 192.168.55.1 dev eth0 lladdr 0c:9d:92:83:6e:27 REACHABLE > fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev wlan0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > fe80::218:aff:fe36:6a56 dev eth0 lladdr 00:18:0a:36:6a:56 router STALE > > Rich From robert.citek at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 15:02:47 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 08:02:47 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 3:25?AM Russell Senior wrote: > Well, there's your problem right there! > > The host 'caddis' doesn't have the ip address you think it should. > ssh'ing from the laptop to the desktop and typing `echo $SSH_CONNECTION` would likely have revealed this, too, as it shows the client IP & port and server IP & port. Alternatively, `w -i` shows only the client ( i.e. laptop ) IP, but that might have been enough. See line 124 and 126 in this gist for examples. https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/24e0a108e4cc251a60119b581706368b#file-slackware-ssh-sh-L122 Regards, - Robert From russell at personaltelco.net Sat Dec 13 21:15:39 2025 From: russell at personaltelco.net (Russell Senior) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 13:15:39 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Or netstat. On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 7:03?AM Robert Citek wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 3:25?AM Russell Senior > wrote: > > > Well, there's your problem right there! > > > > The host 'caddis' doesn't have the ip address you think it should. > > > > ssh'ing from the laptop to the desktop and typing `echo $SSH_CONNECTION` > would likely have revealed this, too, as it shows the client IP & port and > server IP & port. Alternatively, `w -i` shows only the client ( i.e. laptop > ) IP, but that might have been enough. > > See line 124 and 126 in this gist for examples. > > https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/24e0a108e4cc251a60119b581706368b#file-slackware-ssh-sh-L122 > > Regards, > - Robert From robert.citek at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 21:51:17 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 14:51:17 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] ssh: Connection refused In-Reply-To: References: <7b886a6f-aa30-a6eb-ef34-4c2b3932fab@appl-ecosys.com> <568814a2-8ac8-35b9-73e3-5f837867abd@appl-ecosys.com> <24739da3-fa7f-608b-9212-d0a328e7616f@appl-ecosys.com> <72ead76de672c1dd24c0e38599a93400e83c2423.camel@garrardfamily.us> <6b8d68-8c55-9aac-d8f4-8b428752df89@appl-ecosys.com> <90fdd391-34a3-678d-7949-74b7b7b08fd1@appl-ecosys.com> <9cd25d81-2613-1ccc-6361-876b8265e9df@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: Yes, agreed. Gist updated. - Robert On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 2:17?PM Russell Senior wrote: > Or netstat. > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 7:03?AM Robert Citek > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 3:25?AM Russell Senior < > russell at personaltelco.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Well, there's your problem right there! > > > > > > The host 'caddis' doesn't have the ip address you think it should. > > > > > > > ssh'ing from the laptop to the desktop and typing `echo $SSH_CONNECTION` > > would likely have revealed this, too, as it shows the client IP & port > and > > server IP & port. Alternatively, `w -i` shows only the client ( i.e. > laptop > > ) IP, but that might have been enough. > > > > See line 124 and 126 in this gist for examples. > > > > > https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/24e0a108e4cc251a60119b581706368b#file-slackware-ssh-sh-L122 > > > > Regards, > > - Robert > From drl at drloree.com Mon Dec 15 21:48:04 2025 From: drl at drloree.com (Derek Loree) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2025 13:48:04 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Musician friendly distro or app collection Message-ID: <20251215134804.f7536e7dfdd1ec3c0301b501@drloree.com> Does anyone have any advice for setting up a music creation and recording system? I am not much of a musician, but it seems that this shouldn't be that difficult. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how things are supposed to interconnect. JACK, ALSA, PulseAudio, Pulsewire, MIDI, it is a bit confusing and it doesn't help that each app seams to have its own naming convention and dependancies. I am working with an i5 machine that Win11 rejected, it has onboard sound, onboard video, 8G of RAM and a fairly quiet 1T spinning plater drive. My first attempt was to install Debian with the Mate DE. I opened "synaptic" and did a search for "music", then proceeded to select all of the stuff that looked useful or interesting. The result was rather disappointing, a lot of the apps run, but don't produce sound. I spent some time trying to configure things, but met with very limited success. Then I discovered UbuntuStudio, but ended up in the same boat, with some apps that will not produce sound. Is there a better distribution? Is there an app combination that works well together? Thanks, -- Derek Loree From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Mon Dec 15 21:58:46 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2025 13:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Musician friendly distro or app collection In-Reply-To: <20251215134804.f7536e7dfdd1ec3c0301b501@drloree.com> References: <20251215134804.f7536e7dfdd1ec3c0301b501@drloree.com> Message-ID: <2c945df-717a-c9a0-47b4-f9e866b1f1f@appl-ecosys.com> On Mon, 15 Dec 2025, Derek Loree wrote: > Does anyone have any advice for setting up a music creation and recording > system? I am not much of a musician, but it seems that this shouldn't be > that difficult. Derek, It all depends on what you want to do. Are you recoding instrumentals, with or without voice? That determines what hardware you use for recording. I've a pair of studio monitors for sale at a good price. I use audacity for audio. Rich From appsforthem at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 23:15:42 2025 From: appsforthem at gmail.com (Mr Apps) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2025 15:15:42 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Musician friendly distro or app collection In-Reply-To: <2c945df-717a-c9a0-47b4-f9e866b1f1f@appl-ecosys.com> References: <20251215134804.f7536e7dfdd1ec3c0301b501@drloree.com> <2c945df-717a-c9a0-47b4-f9e866b1f1f@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <8b4de266-f435-43cc-b425-f27ae9f35a62@gmail.com> Have you looked at https://ubuntustudio.org/ ? On 12/15/2025 1:58 PM, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 2025, Derek Loree wrote: > >> Does anyone have any advice for setting up a music creation and >> recording >> system? I am not much of a musician, but it seems that this shouldn't be >> that difficult. > > Derek, > > It all depends on what you want to do. Are you recoding instrumentals, > with > or without voice? That determines what hardware you use for recording. > > I've a pair of studio monitors for sale at a good price. > > I use audacity for audio. > > Rich From refugia at zoho.com Tue Dec 16 01:30:58 2025 From: refugia at zoho.com (Patrick O'Connor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2025 17:30:58 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Musician friendly distro or app collection In-Reply-To: <8b4de266-f435-43cc-b425-f27ae9f35a62@gmail.com> References: <20251215134804.f7536e7dfdd1ec3c0301b501@drloree.com> <2c945df-717a-c9a0-47b4-f9e866b1f1f@appl-ecosys.com> <8b4de266-f435-43cc-b425-f27ae9f35a62@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19b24c83366.81b3237f413761.239081617211744460@zoho.com> Fedora has a version for audio production too. https://fedoraproject.org/labs/jam ---- On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 15:15:42 -0800 Mr Apps wrote --- > Have you looked at https://ubuntustudio.org/ ? > > > On 12/15/2025 1:58 PM, Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Dec 2025, Derek Loree wrote: > > > >> Does anyone have any advice for setting up a music creation and > >> recording > >> system? I am not much of a musician, but it seems that this shouldn't be > >> that difficult. > > > > Derek, > > > > It all depends on what you want to do. Are you recoding instrumentals, > > with > > or without voice? That determines what hardware you use for recording. > > > > I've a pair of studio monitors for sale at a good price. > > > > I use audacity for audio. > > > > Rich > From ktneely at astroturfgarden.com Fri Dec 19 04:11:39 2025 From: ktneely at astroturfgarden.com (Kevin Neely) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 20:11:39 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Multiple IPs on a single interface Message-ID: <0db85c0c-a34c-4fb4-8c87-970fb4c99bf9@astroturfgarden.com> I have some devices on my network (raspberry pis, running raspberry pi OS) that started with DHCP and then I assigned the network parameters using nmcli.? To my surprise, they seem to keep the DHCP configuration /and/?the one I assigned statically and I'm struggling to figure out how to remove the offending entry.? here is an example: 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc fq_codel state UP group default qlen 1000 ???link/ether b8:27:eb:8b:2d:bdbrd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff ???inet 192.168.0.11/23 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global noprefixroute eth0 ??????valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever ???inet 192.168.0.156/23 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global secondary dynamic noprefixroute eth0 ??????valid_lft 83356sec preferred_lft 83356sec Relevant info from "nmcli con show "Wired connection 1" pv4.addresses: ????????????????????????192.168.0.11/23 ipv4.gateway: ??????????????????????????192.168.0.1 the .11 address is the static one, as the DHCP scope is 21-200 or so.? In this case, performing a "nmcli con show "Wired connection 1"" doesn't show the .156 address in any of the settings.? ?I've been poking around in a bunch of places and at this point, I'm confused as to what is even managing the network interface.? Like DNS resolution, this seems to have become pretty abstracted over the years as distributions have migrated from one subsystem to another. Any pointers on where to look is appreciated! Kevin From russell at pdxlinux.org Fri Dec 19 04:15:43 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 20:15:43 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Multiple IPs on a single interface In-Reply-To: <0db85c0c-a34c-4fb4-8c87-970fb4c99bf9@astroturfgarden.com> References: <0db85c0c-a34c-4fb4-8c87-970fb4c99bf9@astroturfgarden.com> Message-ID: <98064847-690e-4cd6-8159-26bcc1cf67f6@pdxlinux.org> ip addr del 192.168.0.156/23 dev eth0 or whichever address you want to get rid of. Of course, the DHCP client might still be running, in which case it'll just ask for an address again. -- Russell Senior russell at pdxlinux.org On 12/18/25 20:11, Kevin Neely via PLUG wrote: > I have some devices on my network (raspberry pis, running raspberry pi > OS) that started with DHCP and then I assigned the network parameters > using nmcli.? To my surprise, they seem to keep the DHCP configuration > /and/?the one I assigned statically and I'm struggling to figure out > how to remove the offending entry.? here is an example: > > > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc fq_codel > state UP group default qlen 1000 > ???link/ether b8:27:eb:8b:2d:bdbrd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > ???inet 192.168.0.11/23 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global noprefixroute eth0 > ??????valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > ???inet 192.168.0.156/23 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global secondary > dynamic noprefixroute eth0 > ??????valid_lft 83356sec preferred_lft 83356sec > > Relevant info from "nmcli con show "Wired connection 1" > > pv4.addresses: ????????????????????????192.168.0.11/23 > ipv4.gateway: ??????????????????????????192.168.0.1 > > > the .11 address is the static one, as the DHCP scope is 21-200 or so.? > In this case, performing a "nmcli con show "Wired connection 1"" > doesn't show the .156 address in any of the settings.? ?I've been > poking around in a bunch of places and at this point, I'm confused as > to what is even managing the network interface.? Like DNS resolution, > this seems to have become pretty abstracted over the years as > distributions have migrated from one subsystem to another. > > Any pointers on where to look is appreciated! > > Kevin From russell at pdxlinux.org Fri Dec 19 11:57:42 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 03:57:42 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] REMINDER: Monthly PLUG Clinic on Sunday, December 21, 2025 NEW VENUE In-Reply-To: <7d5bda11-feee-4f71-87db-d334958a2789@pdxlinux.org> References: <7d5bda11-feee-4f71-87db-d334958a2789@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: <2f86db34-784d-4c75-a710-076e9ad5a837@pdxlinux.org> The Clinic, in a different-than-usual location, is this Sunday! On 12/5/25 21:09, Russell Senior wrote: > Where: Albina Large Community Room 2B > ??? ??? ??? Multnomah County Library, Albina Branch > https://multcolib.org/hours-and-locations/albina-library > ??? ??? ??? 205 NE Russell Street > ??? ??? ??? Portland, Oregon 97212 > When: Sunday, December 21, 2025, 1pm-5pm > > See also: https://calagator.org/events/1250482332 > > The PLUG Linux Clinic returns again this month on December 21, from > 1pm-5pm, but at a different venue this month. The beautiful, newly > re-opened Albina Branch Library on NE Russell Street. There is also > access from the North side of the building, on Knott Street, west of > MLK,Jr Blvd. > > Volunteer helpers are as desirable as helpees. Helping is fun and > rewarding. If you've ever helped out at a PLUG Clinic before, come > checkout the space! > > From heinlein at madboa.com Fri Dec 19 16:03:32 2025 From: heinlein at madboa.com (Paul Heinlein) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 16:03:32 +0000 Subject: [PLUG] Multiple IPs on a single interface In-Reply-To: <0db85c0c-a34c-4fb4-8c87-970fb4c99bf9@astroturfgarden.com> References: <0db85c0c-a34c-4fb4-8c87-970fb4c99bf9@astroturfgarden.com> Message-ID: <0101019b375a22d3-8b1425b0-3f69-4214-8cdf-90fdf292f4cc-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com> On Thu, 18 Dec 2025, Kevin Neely via PLUG wrote: > I have some devices on my network (raspberry pis, running raspberry pi OS) > that started with DHCP and then I assigned the network parameters using > nmcli.? To my surprise, they seem to keep the DHCP configuration /and/?the > one I assigned statically and I'm struggling to figure out how to remove the > offending entry.? here is an example: > > > 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc fq_codel state UP > group default qlen 1000 > ???link/ether b8:27:eb:8b:2d:bdbrd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > ???inet 192.168.0.11/23 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global noprefixroute eth0 > ??????valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > ???inet 192.168.0.156/23 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global secondary > dynamic noprefixroute eth0 > ??????valid_lft 83356sec preferred_lft 83356sec > > Relevant info from "nmcli con show "Wired connection 1" > > pv4.addresses: ????????????????????????192.168.0.11/23 > ipv4.gateway: ??????????????????????????192.168.0.1 I think you'll need to use nmcli to alter some other settings for that connection: ipv4.method: manual ipv4.dns: (your dns servers) ipv4.dns-search: (if you have a local domain with dns) Then from a local or out-of-band console use nmcli to restart that connection. -- Paul Heinlein heinlein at madboa.com 45?22'48" N, 122?35'36" W From ktneely at astroturfgarden.com Sat Dec 20 21:31:33 2025 From: ktneely at astroturfgarden.com (Kevin Neely) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 13:31:33 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Multiple IPs on a single interface In-Reply-To: <0101019b375a22d3-8b1425b0-3f69-4214-8cdf-90fdf292f4cc-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com> References: <0db85c0c-a34c-4fb4-8c87-970fb4c99bf9@astroturfgarden.com> <0101019b375a22d3-8b1425b0-3f69-4214-8cdf-90fdf292f4cc-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/25 8:03 AM, Paul Heinlein wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 2025, Kevin Neely via PLUG wrote: > >> I have some devices on my network (raspberry pis, running raspberry >> pi OS) that started with DHCP and then I assigned the network >> parameters using nmcli.? To my surprise, they seem to keep the DHCP >> configuration /and/?the one I assigned statically and I'm struggling >> to figure out how to remove the > > ipv4.method: manual > ipv4.dns: (your dns servers) > ipv4.dns-search: (if you have a local domain with dns) > thank you!? ?Setting "ipv4.method" was the missing configuration.? I had set those other two, but this one seems to definitively configure the interface to only use the manual configuration, whereas I suppose it was ambiguous before! This persists over reboots. kindest regards, Kevin From russell at pdxlinux.org Sun Dec 21 11:06:35 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2025 03:06:35 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] REMINDER: Monthly PLUG Clinic on Sunday, December 21, 2025 NEW VENUE In-Reply-To: <2f86db34-784d-4c75-a710-076e9ad5a837@pdxlinux.org> References: <7d5bda11-feee-4f71-87db-d334958a2789@pdxlinux.org> <2f86db34-784d-4c75-a710-076e9ad5a837@pdxlinux.org> Message-ID: <93db4346-131a-419f-b1c9-1b763359def3@pdxlinux.org> Later today! On 12/19/25 03:57, Russell Senior wrote: > The Clinic, in a different-than-usual location, is this Sunday! > > On 12/5/25 21:09, Russell Senior wrote: >> Where: Albina Large Community Room 2B >> ??? ??? ??? Multnomah County Library, Albina Branch >> https://multcolib.org/hours-and-locations/albina-library >> ??? ??? ??? 205 NE Russell Street >> ??? ??? ??? Portland, Oregon 97212 >> When: Sunday, December 21, 2025, 1pm-5pm >> >> See also: https://calagator.org/events/1250482332 >> >> The PLUG Linux Clinic returns again this month on December 21, from >> 1pm-5pm, but at a different venue this month. The beautiful, newly >> re-opened Albina Branch Library on NE Russell Street. There is also >> access from the North side of the building, on Knott Street, west of >> MLK,Jr Blvd. >> >> Volunteer helpers are as desirable as helpees. Helping is fun and >> rewarding. If you've ever helped out at a PLUG Clinic before, come >> checkout the space! >> >> > From website.reader3 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 03:40:12 2025 From: website.reader3 at gmail.com (American Citizen) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2025 19:40:12 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes Message-ID: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Hi: I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Randall From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 25 13:42:30 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2025 05:42:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> On Wed, 24 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when > I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 > format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet > browsers. > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between > the devil and the deep blue sea. Randall, What's your locale? Here it's: $ locale LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8" LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ALL= Rich From tedm at portlandia-it.com Thu Dec 25 19:28:56 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2025 11:28:56 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> Open the regular textedit, paste into there, save, open the saved file in TexStudio Ted -----Original Message----- From: PLUG On Behalf Of American Citizen Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2025 7:40 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes Hi: I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Randall From tedm at portlandia-it.com Thu Dec 25 19:28:56 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2025 11:28:56 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> Open the regular textedit, paste into there, save, open the saved file in TexStudio Ted -----Original Message----- From: PLUG On Behalf Of American Citizen Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2025 7:40 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes Hi: I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Randall From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com Thu Dec 25 21:24:29 2025 From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2025 13:24:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match exactly. Randall, Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read `man iconv'. Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv command. The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o output_file.txt. HTH, Rich From website.reader3 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 21:32:54 2025 From: website.reader3 at gmail.com (American Citizen) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2025 13:32:54 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: <22c6b99a-2018-4e2a-b072-b2926f77c261@gmail.com> Ted: I am using vim, but when I attempt to write the UTF-8 file which I saved from the internet browser cut and paste command, into ascii format, vim fails with a curious error vim command: :write ++enc=ASCII my_ascii_file.txt I get the following error: "my_ascii_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty to override) WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! Press ENTER or type command to continue And trying to internally set the values of encoding and file encoding seems to work :set encoding=ascii :set fileencoding=ascii except when you double check the encoding, it stays at utf-8 but the fileencoding appears to be changed to the new value=ascii But then when you attempt to overwrite the file or write to a new file, vim throws errors again "new_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty to override) WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! Press ENTER or type command to continue So I am unable to get linux vim version 9.1.83 to work to change the encoding. I had to actually use notepadqq to paste the browser text and then set the encoding to ascii and this seems to work. I suppose you could pipe the file and let tr strip off the non-ascii characters ??? But this means going back in and manually comparing the two files, to see how to fix the omitted characters (if possible) TexStudio crashed mysteriously when I turned off its internal file scanning so I had to set the option again. Supposedly there is some tex sty code which allows UTF-8 to be used in a tex file. And yes, my editor settings under TexStudio IS UTF-8 I already have used up at least an hour of time on this problem as iconv doesn't really change a pure ascii file into a UTF-8 file and vim was failing me. Randall On 12/25/25 11:28, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Open the regular textedit, paste into there, save, open the saved file in TexStudio > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: PLUG On Behalf Of American Citizen > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2025 7:40 PM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes > > Hi: > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The > UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. > > Randall > > > From website.reader3 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 21:37:43 2025 From: website.reader3 at gmail.com (American Citizen) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2025 13:37:43 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Rich: owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 owner at localhost:~> So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o ttt.utf-8.txt owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text owner at localhost:~> so nothing really changed. Randall On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match exactly. > > Randall, > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read `man > iconv'. > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv > command. > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o output_file.txt. > > HTH, > > Rich From tedm at portlandia-it.com Fri Dec 26 17:04:53 2025 From: tedm at portlandia-it.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 09:04:53 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <22c6b99a-2018-4e2a-b072-b2926f77c261@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> <22c6b99a-2018-4e2a-b072-b2926f77c261@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015f01dc7689$c11a36b0$434ea410$@portlandia-it.com> Not really surprising. Copying and pasting into vim is a no-go because the distributors of vim decided when they coded up a rip-off of the actual 'vi' command to add In UTF-8 support - even though the entire command-line terminal environment that vim is used in - is really an ASCII environment NOT a UTF-8 environment. It's important to understand that vim IS NOT vi. This is a common misperception by newcomers to vi (which, in my personal option, is the greatest Text editor ever invented) There's 2 efforts out there that are as close as possible to the REAL vi code: https://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ https://github.com/n-t-roff/heirloom-ex-vi I had intended you copy and paste into the GUI text editor that comes with Linux since you were copying and pasting from a web page - I had not assumed you were running the command-line version of a web browser :-) As you discovered notepadqq also supports the UTF-8 stuff but it at least understands when it writes out a textfile that "text" means ascii. There's an interesting discussion of the conversion problems here with some suggestions you could use at the command line: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/171832/converting-a-utf-8-file-to-ascii-best-effort One commentor recommended this program: https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/jammy/man1/konwert.1.html I know that this is going to sound terribly privileged and nationalistic but the fact is that the UNIX operating system was invented in the United States not in any other country, and the simple reality is that every other country has had the same access to electronics knowledge and scientific information since the invention of the vacuum tube - but every other government and culture on the fact of the Earth pretty much didn't value any of that "tech stuff" until AFTER us Americans invented it. And NOW, they all want a piece of the action. Well OK maybe if they all had valued open information, the free exchange of ideas, scientific advancement, much more than they valued dictatorial socio-religious crap used to tell people what to do and how to live and who to screw, then MAYBE they would have gotten to the digital age FIRST and then maybe us Americans would have to learn Chinese if we wanted to write software. (there's a reason the Americans using stone knives and bearskins made it to the moon and back and the Chinese today even though they manufacture tech that would knock 1969 NASA tech into a cocked hat - still haven't made it there) Get me drift, here? UTF-8 was tacked on to UNIX as a way of accommodating the rest of the world who frankly couldn't give a tinker's damn about the digital age - until we Americans started kicking their butts with it. So it's NEVER going to be completely fully integrated into the Linux experience the way ASCII is. If, you, Randall, are stuck having to deal with that interface of American computing to rest of the world computing - your going to always have to deal with this fundamental mismatch. What I find most interesting in all of this is that the tech types in the REST of the world fully accept this - THEY are NOT in general the ones complaining about the second-class citizen status of UTF-8. They know that they came second, they know they came in second because the majority of people in their culture don't value freedom of choice, and all that other stuff needed for scientific advancement, and they accept that their native languages play second fiddle to ASCII. They type "rm" and "ls" and all the other ASCII commands in UNIX/Linux without complaint, and they generally don't have a problem spending time on this conversion stuff...it's us Americans who are mostly bitching and complaining about it...not realizing that we won the digital war, here.... (hell, even Linus Torvalds gave up his Finnish citizenship and became a US citizen, that really ought to tell you something) Ted -----Original Message----- From: PLUG On Behalf Of American Citizen Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2025 1:33 PM To: plug at lists.pdxlinux.org Subject: Re: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes Ted: I am using vim, but when I attempt to write the UTF-8 file which I saved from the internet browser cut and paste command, into ascii format, vim fails with a curious error vim command: :write ++enc=ASCII my_ascii_file.txt I get the following error: "my_ascii_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty to override) WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! Press ENTER or type command to continue And trying to internally set the values of encoding and file encoding seems to work :set encoding=ascii :set fileencoding=ascii except when you double check the encoding, it stays at utf-8 but the fileencoding appears to be changed to the new value=ascii But then when you attempt to overwrite the file or write to a new file, vim throws errors again "new_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty to override) WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! Press ENTER or type command to continue So I am unable to get linux vim version 9.1.83 to work to change the encoding. I had to actually use notepadqq to paste the browser text and then set the encoding to ascii and this seems to work. I suppose you could pipe the file and let tr strip off the non-ascii characters ??? But this means going back in and manually comparing the two files, to see how to fix the omitted characters (if possible) TexStudio crashed mysteriously when I turned off its internal file scanning so I had to set the option again. Supposedly there is some tex sty code which allows UTF-8 to be used in a tex file. And yes, my editor settings under TexStudio IS UTF-8 I already have used up at least an hour of time on this problem as iconv doesn't really change a pure ascii file into a UTF-8 file and vim was failing me. Randall On 12/25/25 11:28, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Open the regular textedit, paste into there, save, open the saved file > in TexStudio > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: PLUG On Behalf Of American > Citizen > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2025 7:40 PM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes > > Hi: > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the > paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. > The > UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. > > Randall > > > From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 19:07:41 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 14:07:41 -0500 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: I do not see your file, but I often get trouble with \r at the line ends, messing up a lot of things in linux. If that is the case here try to strip \r from the file before converting it to ascii. I do it like this: cat file | sed 's/\r//g' > anotherFile Color codes from grep and such wreck about the same havoc while also being invisible. Hope that helps, Tomas On Thu, Dec 25, 2025, 16:38 American Citizen wrote: > Rich: > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii > iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 > owner at localhost:~> > > So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o ttt.utf-8.txt > owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt > ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text > owner at localhost:~> > > so nothing really changed. > > Randall > > On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match exactly. > > > > Randall, > > > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read `man > > iconv'. > > > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv > > command. > > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o output_file.txt. > > > > HTH, > > > > Rich > From michaelewan15 at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 21:01:25 2025 From: michaelewan15 at gmail.com (Michael Ewan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 13:01:25 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is an easier way than using 'sed', use dos2unix command instead, it has been available since the early days of PC's being on the same network as UNIX servers. Either sudo apt install dos2unix or dnf install dos2unix On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 11:08?AM Tomas Kuchta wrote: > > I do not see your file, but I often get trouble with \r at the line ends, > messing up a lot of things in linux. > > If that is the case here try to strip \r from the file before converting it > to ascii. > > I do it like this: > cat file | sed 's/\r//g' > anotherFile > > Color codes from grep and such wreck about the same havoc while also being > invisible. > > Hope that helps, > Tomas > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2025, 16:38 American Citizen > wrote: > > > Rich: > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii > > iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o ttt.utf-8.txt > > owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt > > ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > so nothing really changed. > > > > Randall > > > > On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > > > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match exactly. > > > > > > Randall, > > > > > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read `man > > > iconv'. > > > > > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv > > > command. > > > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o output_file.txt. > > > > > > HTH, > > > > > > Rich > > From lorenl at north-winds.org Fri Dec 26 21:57:25 2025 From: lorenl at north-winds.org (Loren M. Lang) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 13:57:25 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 24, 2025 at 07:40:12PM -0800, American Citizen wrote: > Hi: > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when > I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 > format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet > browsers. > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste > goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 > characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex > Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set > that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o > output_file and the file remains ascii. This is because US-ASCII is a strict subset of UTF-8. This was by design in the UTF-8 design. All ASCII files are 100% valid UTF-8 as well. A file that is strictly ASCII characters is also UTF-8. To make a file that shows as UTF-8 and not ASCII requires that you add some character to it that is beyond simple ASCII. Some software does use a special Unicode character called the BOM or Byte Order Mark as the first UTF-8 character in a file to tell the reader that this file is indeed UTF-8 and not some other encoding. This is Unicode character U+FEFF which is encoded into UTF-8 as the 3-byte sequence 0xEF 0xBB 0xBF. Other software use other clues to identify it. For example, XML files often start with this: If the XML file only contains characters available in US-ASCII, then the file will still be 100% ASCII bytes. Only where there are characters beyond ASCII will you notice any UTF-8 encoding. As a side note, you can identify the different by looking at the most-significant bit of the byte. ASCII characters only use 7 bits and the most significant bit is always clear. When you have characters beyond ASCII in UTF-8 encoding, then those characters will be in a multi-byte sequence where all bytes in the sequence will have the most significant bit set. Perl and Python use something similar. In Perl, if I have the line: use utf8; At the top, it will tell the interpreter that this file is saved in UTF-8. Since UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII, it doesn't doesn't interfere with the hashbang line at the top. In Python, I would use this at the top of my file: #!/usr/bin/env python # vim: set fileencoding=utf-8 : Incidentally, this also tells Vim to open up the file in the UTF-8 encoding while editing. Now, I can including any Unicode characters I want in strings. Also, while this command won't ever do anything: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file Going in the other direction with this command: iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII input_file -o output_file Will only ever either throw an error if the UTF-8 file contains any characters not representable in ASCII or it will pass the file through unchanges since all ASCII characters use the same byte representation in UTF-8. It's useful as a check whether a file is within the subset of ASCII or not, but not much more. > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change > the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? I am no familiar with TexStudio, but it should just come down to making sure you tell the editor the correct encoding to save the file as. From a quick Google, there seems to be a settings screen for it. Also, you can try adding this to your TeX file: % !TEX TS-program = lualatex % !TEX encoding = UTF-8 Unicode % !TEX spellcheck = en_US You also have to make sure you use a TeX engine that supports UTF-8. Any engine based on ?-TeX should which includes Luatex. > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between > the devil and the deep blue sea. A file will be ASCII until the first non-ASCII character is added to it. The key is more just to make sure that your editor saves it as UTF-8 and not something else. Vim, for example, has traditionally defaulted to latin1 and will through errors when adding characters beyond latin1 if you don't have :set encoding=utf-8 set-up in your Vim environment. > > Randall > > -- Loren M. Lang lorenl at north-winds.org http://www.north-winds.org/ IRC: penguin359 Public Key: http://www.north-winds.org/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: 7896 E099 9FC7 9F6C E0ED E103 222D F356 A57A 98FA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenl at north-winds.org Fri Dec 26 22:00:34 2025 From: lorenl at north-winds.org (Loren M. Lang) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 14:00:34 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2025 at 01:24:29PM -0800, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match exactly. > > Randall, > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read `man > iconv'. > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv command. > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o output_file.txt. This is actually a do-nothing command. UTF-8 is a strict coding superset of US-ASCII and all ASCII files are also 100% valid UTF-8. This will just output the same file it was given for input. This is more for things like changing legacy Latin-1 files to UTF-8 as Latin-1 encodes non-ASCII characters differently than UTF-8 does, but the common ASCII subset of both Latin-1 and UTF-8 have 100% identical byte encoding. > > HTH, > > Rich -- Loren M. Lang lorenl at north-winds.org http://www.north-winds.org/ IRC: penguin359 Public Key: http://www.north-winds.org/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: 7896 E099 9FC7 9F6C E0ED E103 222D F356 A57A 98FA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenl at north-winds.org Fri Dec 26 21:57:25 2025 From: lorenl at north-winds.org (Loren M. Lang) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 13:57:25 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 24, 2025 at 07:40:12PM -0800, American Citizen wrote: > Hi: > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when > I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 > format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet > browsers. > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste > goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 > characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex > Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set > that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o > output_file and the file remains ascii. This is because US-ASCII is a strict subset of UTF-8. This was by design in the UTF-8 design. All ASCII files are 100% valid UTF-8 as well. A file that is strictly ASCII characters is also UTF-8. To make a file that shows as UTF-8 and not ASCII requires that you add some character to it that is beyond simple ASCII. Some software does use a special Unicode character called the BOM or Byte Order Mark as the first UTF-8 character in a file to tell the reader that this file is indeed UTF-8 and not some other encoding. This is Unicode character U+FEFF which is encoded into UTF-8 as the 3-byte sequence 0xEF 0xBB 0xBF. Other software use other clues to identify it. For example, XML files often start with this: If the XML file only contains characters available in US-ASCII, then the file will still be 100% ASCII bytes. Only where there are characters beyond ASCII will you notice any UTF-8 encoding. As a side note, you can identify the different by looking at the most-significant bit of the byte. ASCII characters only use 7 bits and the most significant bit is always clear. When you have characters beyond ASCII in UTF-8 encoding, then those characters will be in a multi-byte sequence where all bytes in the sequence will have the most significant bit set. Perl and Python use something similar. In Perl, if I have the line: use utf8; At the top, it will tell the interpreter that this file is saved in UTF-8. Since UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII, it doesn't doesn't interfere with the hashbang line at the top. In Python, I would use this at the top of my file: #!/usr/bin/env python # vim: set fileencoding=utf-8 : Incidentally, this also tells Vim to open up the file in the UTF-8 encoding while editing. Now, I can including any Unicode characters I want in strings. Also, while this command won't ever do anything: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file Going in the other direction with this command: iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII input_file -o output_file Will only ever either throw an error if the UTF-8 file contains any characters not representable in ASCII or it will pass the file through unchanges since all ASCII characters use the same byte representation in UTF-8. It's useful as a check whether a file is within the subset of ASCII or not, but not much more. > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change > the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? I am no familiar with TexStudio, but it should just come down to making sure you tell the editor the correct encoding to save the file as. From a quick Google, there seems to be a settings screen for it. Also, you can try adding this to your TeX file: % !TEX TS-program = lualatex % !TEX encoding = UTF-8 Unicode % !TEX spellcheck = en_US You also have to make sure you use a TeX engine that supports UTF-8. Any engine based on ?-TeX should which includes Luatex. > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between > the devil and the deep blue sea. A file will be ASCII until the first non-ASCII character is added to it. The key is more just to make sure that your editor saves it as UTF-8 and not something else. Vim, for example, has traditionally defaulted to latin1 and will through errors when adding characters beyond latin1 if you don't have :set encoding=utf-8 set-up in your Vim environment. > > Randall > > -- Loren M. Lang lorenl at north-winds.org http://www.north-winds.org/ IRC: penguin359 Public Key: http://www.north-winds.org/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: 7896 E099 9FC7 9F6C E0ED E103 222D F356 A57A 98FA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenl at north-winds.org Fri Dec 26 22:24:04 2025 From: lorenl at north-winds.org (Loren M. Lang) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 14:24:04 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <22c6b99a-2018-4e2a-b072-b2926f77c261@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> <22c6b99a-2018-4e2a-b072-b2926f77c261@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2025 at 01:32:54PM -0800, American Citizen wrote: > Ted: > > I am using vim, but when I attempt to write the UTF-8 file which I saved > from the internet browser cut and paste command, into ascii format, vim > fails with a curious error UTF-8 works well in Vim. You just have to make sure it is properly enabled in your environment. In fact, I am using Vim as my E-mail editor for Mutt and I regularly include UTF-8 characters for various reasons such as writing the degrees sign when I say that the high for today is 45?F. If using GVim as a GUI, then you just need to make sure that (G)Vim is configured for utf-8. If using Vim from a terminal, then you should also make sure your terminal environment is also configured for UTF-8. Some distributions like Fedora will already have done this for you. Others like Arch expect for you to do this as part of the system set-up. Check the output of the "locale" command to see if it contains UTF-8. You should see "LANG=en_US.UTF-8" in the list of values or whatever's appropriate for your native language. If it's not set, then you'll need to add: export LANG=en_US.UTF-8 To your shell's start-up script and maybe also modify the encoding setting in your Terminal software if it's not already UTF-8. Once the terminal is set-up, then add the following line to your .vimrc file: set encoding=utf-8 With this, both Vim and GVim will support full UTF-8 encoding and it should display correctly while in the terminal, over SSH, or GUI. Also, if you ever have to save files in a different encoding, it's recommended to keep encoding set to utf-8 as it allows the full repetoire of characters in Vim and will display correctly on the terminal, but set fileencoding instead of encoding when loading/saving the file. Vim will convert on read/write. You can also use ++enc= with the :write or :sp commands (and friends) to tell it at that time what the file encoding it and it will convert it to/from UTF-8 while editing the file. > > vim command: > > :write ++enc=ASCII my_ascii_file.txt > > I get the following error: > > "my_ascii_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty > to override) > WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged > don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! > Press ENTER or type command to continue This is expected. You are telling Vim that it's only allowed to write characters that reside withing the 128 ASCII characters, but your file has non-ASCII characters in it. It would have to remove those characters to save it. You'd have to save it with an encoding like UTF-8 that includes them to save the file without loss. > > And trying to internally set the values of encoding and file encoding seems > to work > > :set encoding=ascii > > :set fileencoding=ascii > > except when you double check the encoding, it stays at utf-8 > > but the fileencoding appears to be changed to the new value=ascii > > But then when you attempt to overwrite the file or write to a new file, vim > throws errors again > > "new_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty to > override) > WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged > don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! > Press ENTER or type command to continue > > So I am unable to get linux vim version 9.1.83 to work to change the > encoding. > > I had to actually use notepadqq to paste the browser text and then set the > encoding to ascii and this seems to work. > > I suppose you could pipe the file and let tr strip off the non-ascii > characters ??? But this means going back in and manually comparing the two > files, to see how to fix the omitted characters (if possible) > > TexStudio crashed mysteriously when I turned off its internal file scanning > so I had to set the option again. > > Supposedly there is some tex sty code which allows UTF-8 to be used in a tex > file. And yes, my editor settings under TexStudio IS UTF-8 > > I already have used up at least an hour of time on this problem as iconv > doesn't really change a pure ascii file into a UTF-8 file and vim was > failing me. > > Randall > > On 12/25/25 11:28, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Open the regular textedit, paste into there, save, open the saved file in TexStudio > > > > Ted > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PLUG On Behalf Of American Citizen > > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2025 7:40 PM > > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > > Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes > > > > Hi: > > > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. > > > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The > > UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. > > > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? > > > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. > > > > Randall > > > > > > -- Loren M. Lang lorenl at north-winds.org http://www.north-winds.org/ IRC: penguin359 Public Key: http://www.north-winds.org/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: 7896 E099 9FC7 9F6C E0ED E103 222D F356 A57A 98FA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From website.reader3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 01:29:14 2025 From: website.reader3 at gmail.com (American Citizen) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 17:29:14 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86a8a5d9-15b4-40e2-b52a-adf27c800bbc@gmail.com> Loren: All your comments are well spoken and I have come to the same viewpoints as your's. Lots of websites on the internet seem to be too brief and succinct but yet pretend to be informed when it comes to file encoding conversions. I am not sure that all the bugs are shaken from TexStudio yet. I did have one "mysterious" crash, and their error reporter wanted permission from me to email them about this crash. One more comment, using the "file" command to determine the encoding does NOT always work, at least for long files 100K or more in size. I did find that "uchardet" does work. Thanks for the posts. I appreciate them. Randall On 12/26/25 13:57, Loren M. Lang wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2025 at 07:40:12PM -0800, American Citizen wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when >> I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 >> format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet >> browsers. >> >> When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste >> goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 >> characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex >> Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set >> that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. >> >> iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o >> output_file and the file remains ascii. > This is because US-ASCII is a strict subset of UTF-8. This was by design > in the UTF-8 design. All ASCII files are 100% valid UTF-8 as well. A > file that is strictly ASCII characters is also UTF-8. To make a file > that shows as UTF-8 and not ASCII requires that you add some character > to it that is beyond simple ASCII. Some software does use a special > Unicode character called the BOM or Byte Order Mark as the first UTF-8 > character in a file to tell the reader that this file is indeed UTF-8 > and not some other encoding. This is Unicode character U+FEFF which is > encoded into UTF-8 as the 3-byte sequence 0xEF 0xBB 0xBF. Other software > use other clues to identify it. For example, XML files often start with > this: > > > > If the XML file only contains characters available in US-ASCII, then the > file will still be 100% ASCII bytes. Only where there are characters > beyond ASCII will you notice any UTF-8 encoding. As a side note, you can > identify the different by looking at the most-significant bit of the > byte. ASCII characters only use 7 bits and the most significant bit is > always clear. When you have characters beyond ASCII in UTF-8 encoding, > then those characters will be in a multi-byte sequence where all bytes > in the sequence will have the most significant bit set. > > Perl and Python use something similar. In Perl, if I have the line: > > use utf8; > > At the top, it will tell the interpreter that this file is saved in > UTF-8. Since UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII, it doesn't doesn't > interfere with the hashbang line at the top. In Python, I would use this > at the top of my file: > > #!/usr/bin/env python > # vim: set fileencoding=utf-8 : > > Incidentally, this also tells Vim to open up the file in the UTF-8 > encoding while editing. Now, I can including any Unicode characters I > want in strings. > > Also, while this command won't ever do anything: > > iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file > > Going in the other direction with this command: > > iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII input_file -o output_file > > Will only ever either throw an error if the UTF-8 file contains any > characters not representable in ASCII or it will pass the file through > unchanges since all ASCII characters use the same byte representation in > UTF-8. It's useful as a check whether a file is within the subset of > ASCII or not, but not much more. > >> Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change >> the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? > I am no familiar with TexStudio, but it should just come down to making > sure you tell the editor the correct encoding to save the file as. From > a quick Google, there seems to be a settings screen for it. Also, you > can try adding this to your TeX file: > > % !TEX TS-program = lualatex > % !TEX encoding = UTF-8 Unicode > % !TEX spellcheck = en_US > > You also have to make sure you use a TeX engine that supports UTF-8. Any > engine based on ?-TeX should which includes Luatex. > >> I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between >> the devil and the deep blue sea. > A file will be ASCII until the first non-ASCII character is added to it. > The key is more just to make sure that your editor saves it as UTF-8 and > not something else. Vim, for example, has traditionally defaulted to > latin1 and will through errors when adding characters beyond latin1 if > you don't have :set encoding=utf-8 set-up in your Vim environment. > >> Randall >> >> From russell at pdxlinux.org Sat Dec 27 09:03:31 2025 From: russell at pdxlinux.org (Russell Senior) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2025 01:03:31 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] ANNOUNCEMENT: No General Monthly Meeting in January 2026 Message-ID: <231fa034-f608-4adf-90ad-11359ee025ea@pdxlinux.org> Who: Nobody What: Nothing Where: Nowhere When: Thursday January 1, 2026 at 7 PM Why: The pursuit of technology freedom Reason #1 is that the First Thursday is a holiday this month. Reason #2 is that we don't have a speaker lined up, though I remain hopeful for February, March and April. But, just because I have smoked out some decent, even excellent speakers in the last couple years does not relieve you all of doing your part, too! Get in touch with your ideas, contacts, or yourself. We're planning to have a Clinic in January, but otherwise, we'll see you all in February! Happy Holidays! -- Russell Senior PLUG Volunteer russell at pdxlinux.org From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 16:57:33 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2025 11:57:33 -0500 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: I found they current dos2unicx doesn't remove \r . I am not sure if it has ever remove them. On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 16:02 Michael Ewan wrote: > There is an easier way than using 'sed', use dos2unix command instead, > it has been available since the early days of PC's being on the same > network as UNIX servers. > Either > sudo apt install dos2unix > or > dnf install dos2unix > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 11:08?AM Tomas Kuchta > wrote: > > > > I do not see your file, but I often get trouble with \r at the line ends, > > messing up a lot of things in linux. > > > > If that is the case here try to strip \r from the file before converting > it > > to ascii. > > > > I do it like this: > > cat file | sed 's/\r//g' > anotherFile > > > > Color codes from grep and such wreck about the same havoc while also > being > > invisible. > > > > Hope that helps, > > Tomas > > > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2025, 16:38 American Citizen > > wrote: > > > > > Rich: > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii > > > iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o > ttt.utf-8.txt > > > owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt > > > ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > so nothing really changed. > > > > > > Randall > > > > > > On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > > > > > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match > exactly. > > > > > > > > Randall, > > > > > > > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read > `man > > > > iconv'. > > > > > > > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv > > > > command. > > > > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o > output_file.txt. > > > > > > > > HTH, > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > From robert.citek at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 17:52:43 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2025 10:52:43 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: Odd. dos2unix for me: https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/2a7e336914ef169a4de87f463eef7f04#file-dos2unix-example-ipynb Regards, - Robert On Sat, Dec 27, 2025 at 9:58?AM Tomas Kuchta wrote: > I found they current dos2unicx doesn't remove \r . I am not sure if it has > ever remove them. > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 16:02 Michael Ewan wrote: > > > There is an easier way than using 'sed', use dos2unix command instead, > > it has been available since the early days of PC's being on the same > > network as UNIX servers. > > Either > > sudo apt install dos2unix > > or > > dnf install dos2unix > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 11:08?AM Tomas Kuchta > > wrote: > > > > > > I do not see your file, but I often get trouble with \r at the line > ends, > > > messing up a lot of things in linux. > > > > > > If that is the case here try to strip \r from the file before > converting > > it > > > to ascii. > > > > > > I do it like this: > > > cat file | sed 's/\r//g' > anotherFile > > > > > > Color codes from grep and such wreck about the same havoc while also > > being > > > invisible. > > > > > > Hope that helps, > > > Tomas > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2025, 16:38 American Citizen < > website.reader3 at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Rich: > > > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii > > > > iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 > > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > > > So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII > > > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o > > ttt.utf-8.txt > > > > owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt > > > > ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text > > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > > > so nothing really changed. > > > > > > > > Randall > > > > > > > > On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match > > exactly. > > > > > > > > > > Randall, > > > > > > > > > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. Read > > `man > > > > > iconv'. > > > > > > > > > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the iconv > > > > > command. > > > > > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o > > output_file.txt. > > > > > > > > > > HTH, > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > From galens at seitzassoc.com Sun Dec 28 02:14:48 2025 From: galens at seitzassoc.com (Galen Seitz) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:14:48 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9da3b1f4-7181-4de8-9b16-7ac09047a42b@seitzassoc.com> On 12/27/25 08:57, Tomas Kuchta wrote: > I found they current dos2unicx doesn't remove \r . I am not sure if it has > ever remove them. That seems odd. It has always worked for me. $ cat /etc/debian_version 12.12 $ alias hd='od -A x -t x1z' $ echo "hello" > hello.txt $ hd hello.txt 000000 68 65 6c 6c 6f 0a >hello.< 000006 $ unix2dos hello.txt unix2dos: converting file hello.txt to DOS format... $ hd hello.txt 000000 68 65 6c 6c 6f 0d 0a >hello..< 000007 $ dos2unix hello.txt dos2unix: converting file hello.txt to Unix format... $ hd hello.txt 000000 68 65 6c 6c 6f 0a >hello.< 000006 $ dos2unix --version dos2unix 7.4.3 (2022-06-05) With Unicode UTF-16 support. With native language support. With support to preserve the user and group ownership of files. LOCALEDIR: /usr/share/locale http://waterlan.home.xs4all.nl/dos2unix.html galen -- Galen Seitz galens at seitzassoc.com From lorenl at north-winds.org Sun Dec 28 10:58:32 2025 From: lorenl at north-winds.org (Loren M. Lang) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2025 02:58:32 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <86a8a5d9-15b4-40e2-b52a-adf27c800bbc@gmail.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <86a8a5d9-15b4-40e2-b52a-adf27c800bbc@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 05:29:14PM -0800, American Citizen wrote: > Loren: > > All your comments are well spoken and I have come to the same viewpoints as > your's. > > Lots of websites on the internet seem to be too brief and succinct but yet > pretend to be informed when it comes to file encoding conversions. > > I am not sure that all the bugs are shaken from TexStudio yet. I did have > one "mysterious" crash, and their error reporter wanted permission from me > to email them about this crash. > > One more comment, using the "file" command to determine the encoding does > NOT always work, at least for long files 100K or more in size. I did find > that "uchardet" does work. Yes, file only looks at a sample of any one file and uses heuristics which sometimes can be wrong. One of the tricks I do just to see if a file is pure ASCII or UTF-8 is to use iconv and see if it finds any errors. Using this: $ iconv -f ascii -o /dev/null cool-characters.txt iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 $ iconv -f utf-8 -o /dev/null cool-characters.txt I can see that the file cool-characters.txt contains non-ASCII characters because it through an error trying to convert from ASCII, but it is 100% valid UTF-8. Most non-ASCII encodings will appear as malformed if decoded as UTF-8. Do note this test doesn't work for all encodings. For example, the classic 8-bit encoding used in the US for UNIX systems is ISO-8859-1 also known as latin1 is a single-byte encoding with a defined meaning for all 256 values. This means that even an arbitrary binary file can be converted from latin1 even though it will produce meaningless results. And, really, if you have a file using a lot of control characters in the 0x00-0x1f and 0x80-0x9f ranges, it's probably not latin1 text even though iconv will happily convert it. > > Thanks for the posts. I appreciate them. > > Randall > > > On 12/26/25 13:57, Loren M. Lang wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2025 at 07:40:12PM -0800, American Citizen wrote: > > > Hi: > > > > > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when > > > I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 > > > format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet > > > browsers. > > > > > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the paste > > > goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. The UTF-8 > > > characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex > > > Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set > > > that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > > > > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o > > > output_file and the file remains ascii. > > This is because US-ASCII is a strict subset of UTF-8. This was by design > > in the UTF-8 design. All ASCII files are 100% valid UTF-8 as well. A > > file that is strictly ASCII characters is also UTF-8. To make a file > > that shows as UTF-8 and not ASCII requires that you add some character > > to it that is beyond simple ASCII. Some software does use a special > > Unicode character called the BOM or Byte Order Mark as the first UTF-8 > > character in a file to tell the reader that this file is indeed UTF-8 > > and not some other encoding. This is Unicode character U+FEFF which is > > encoded into UTF-8 as the 3-byte sequence 0xEF 0xBB 0xBF. Other software > > use other clues to identify it. For example, XML files often start with > > this: > > > > > > > > If the XML file only contains characters available in US-ASCII, then the > > file will still be 100% ASCII bytes. Only where there are characters > > beyond ASCII will you notice any UTF-8 encoding. As a side note, you can > > identify the different by looking at the most-significant bit of the > > byte. ASCII characters only use 7 bits and the most significant bit is > > always clear. When you have characters beyond ASCII in UTF-8 encoding, > > then those characters will be in a multi-byte sequence where all bytes > > in the sequence will have the most significant bit set. > > > > Perl and Python use something similar. In Perl, if I have the line: > > > > use utf8; > > > > At the top, it will tell the interpreter that this file is saved in > > UTF-8. Since UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII, it doesn't doesn't > > interfere with the hashbang line at the top. In Python, I would use this > > at the top of my file: > > > > #!/usr/bin/env python > > # vim: set fileencoding=utf-8 : > > > > Incidentally, this also tells Vim to open up the file in the UTF-8 > > encoding while editing. Now, I can including any Unicode characters I > > want in strings. > > > > Also, while this command won't ever do anything: > > > > iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file > > > > Going in the other direction with this command: > > > > iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII input_file -o output_file > > > > Will only ever either throw an error if the UTF-8 file contains any > > characters not representable in ASCII or it will pass the file through > > unchanges since all ASCII characters use the same byte representation in > > UTF-8. It's useful as a check whether a file is within the subset of > > ASCII or not, but not much more. > > > > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change > > > the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? > > I am no familiar with TexStudio, but it should just come down to making > > sure you tell the editor the correct encoding to save the file as. From > > a quick Google, there seems to be a settings screen for it. Also, you > > can try adding this to your TeX file: > > > > % !TEX TS-program = lualatex > > % !TEX encoding = UTF-8 Unicode > > % !TEX spellcheck = en_US > > > > You also have to make sure you use a TeX engine that supports UTF-8. Any > > engine based on ?-TeX should which includes Luatex. > > > > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between > > > the devil and the deep blue sea. > > A file will be ASCII until the first non-ASCII character is added to it. > > The key is more just to make sure that your editor saves it as UTF-8 and > > not something else. Vim, for example, has traditionally defaulted to > > latin1 and will through errors when adding characters beyond latin1 if > > you don't have :set encoding=utf-8 set-up in your Vim environment. > > > > > Randall > > > > > > -- Loren M. Lang lorenl at north-winds.org http://www.north-winds.org/ IRC: penguin359 Public Key: http://www.north-winds.org/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: 7896 E099 9FC7 9F6C E0ED E103 222D F356 A57A 98FA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 20:05:57 2025 From: tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com (Tomas Kuchta) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2025 15:05:57 -0500 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good for you. I was trying to respond to the OP and be helpful. I would definitely prefer not to be dragged into discussions about my post. That said: I get this \r junk from other people's Perl output as well as from most of the EDA SW output we use. No amount of dos2unix on RHEL 8 gets rid of it. I would not care if it would not break ascii regexp and all sorts of parsers depending on regexp. -T On Sat, Dec 27, 2025, 12:54 Robert Citek wrote: > Odd. dos2unix for me: > > > https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/2a7e336914ef169a4de87f463eef7f04#file-dos2unix-example-ipynb > > Regards, > - Robert > > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2025 at 9:58?AM Tomas Kuchta > > wrote: > > > I found they current dos2unicx doesn't remove \r . I am not sure if it > has > > ever remove them. > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 16:02 Michael Ewan > wrote: > > > > > There is an easier way than using 'sed', use dos2unix command instead, > > > it has been available since the early days of PC's being on the same > > > network as UNIX servers. > > > Either > > > sudo apt install dos2unix > > > or > > > dnf install dos2unix > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 11:08?AM Tomas Kuchta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I do not see your file, but I often get trouble with \r at the line > > ends, > > > > messing up a lot of things in linux. > > > > > > > > If that is the case here try to strip \r from the file before > > converting > > > it > > > > to ascii. > > > > > > > > I do it like this: > > > > cat file | sed 's/\r//g' > anotherFile > > > > > > > > Color codes from grep and such wreck about the same havoc while also > > > being > > > > invisible. > > > > > > > > Hope that helps, > > > > Tomas > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2025, 16:38 American Citizen < > > website.reader3 at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Rich: > > > > > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii > > > > > iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 > > > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > > > > > So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII > > > > > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o > > > ttt.utf-8.txt > > > > > owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt > > > > > ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text > > > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > > > > > so nothing really changed. > > > > > > > > > > Randall > > > > > > > > > > On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match > > > exactly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Randall, > > > > > > > > > > > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. > Read > > > `man > > > > > > iconv'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the > iconv > > > > > > command. > > > > > > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o > > > output_file.txt. > > > > > > > > > > > > HTH, > > > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > From robert.citek at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 21:21:11 2025 From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2025 14:21:11 -0700 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <8d14e188-d7c4-99b8-9e6c-9ddfa71d4e9c@appl-ecosys.com> <8943a931-9326-47e8-96ba-7caec8e28638@gmail.com> <6899f530-7297-d346-2a2-85806d68389a@appl-ecosys.com> <798feeb2-0096-4e18-8dd6-f4b1ee863c8b@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please do not malign a perfectly good tool just because you may be using it incorrectly, be that dos2unix, perl, regex, or anything else. Or demonstrate how you yourself use it so that others can file a bug report or issue a Pull Request. Misinformation about any tool is not helpful to the OP or anyone else. For what it's worth, dos2unix seems to work just fine on RHEL 8: { cat <<'eof' grep PRETTY /etc/os-release { yum -y update && yum -y install dos2unix ; } >& /dev/null echo -en 'hello world\r\n' | cat -vetn echo -en 'hello world\r\n' | dos2unix | cat -vetn eof } | docker container run -i --rm redhat/ubi8 /bin/bash PRETTY_NAME="Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8.10 (Ootpa)" 1 hello world^M$ 1 hello world$ Wishing you the best of health. Regards, - Robert On Sun, Dec 28, 2025 at 1:07?PM Tomas Kuchta wrote: > Good for you. > > I was trying to respond to the OP and be helpful. > > I would definitely prefer not to be dragged into discussions about my post. > > That said: > > I get this \r junk from other people's Perl output as well as from most of > the EDA SW output we use. > > No amount of dos2unix on RHEL 8 gets rid of it. I would not care if it > would not break ascii regexp and all sorts of parsers depending on regexp. > > -T > On Sat, Dec 27, 2025, 12:54 Robert Citek wrote: > > > Odd. dos2unix for me: > > > > > > > https://gist.github.com/rwcitek/2a7e336914ef169a4de87f463eef7f04#file-dos2unix-example-ipynb > > > > Regards, > > - Robert > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2025 at 9:58?AM Tomas Kuchta < > tomas.kuchta.lists at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I found they current dos2unicx doesn't remove \r . I am not sure if it > > has > > > ever remove them. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 16:02 Michael Ewan > > wrote: > > > > > > > There is an easier way than using 'sed', use dos2unix command > instead, > > > > it has been available since the early days of PC's being on the same > > > > network as UNIX servers. > > > > Either > > > > sudo apt install dos2unix > > > > or > > > > dnf install dos2unix > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 11:08?AM Tomas Kuchta > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I do not see your file, but I often get trouble with \r at the line > > > ends, > > > > > messing up a lot of things in linux. > > > > > > > > > > If that is the case here try to strip \r from the file before > > > converting > > > > it > > > > > to ascii. > > > > > > > > > > I do it like this: > > > > > cat file | sed 's/\r//g' > anotherFile > > > > > > > > > > Color codes from grep and such wreck about the same havoc while > also > > > > being > > > > > invisible. > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps, > > > > > Tomas > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2025, 16:38 American Citizen < > > > website.reader3 at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Rich: > > > > > > > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f UTF-8 -t ASCII ttt.txt -o ttt.ascii > > > > > > iconv: illegal input sequence at position 465 > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > > > > > > > So I cannot hammer a UTF-8 file into ASCII > > > > > > > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 ttt.ascii.txt -o > > > > ttt.utf-8.txt > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> file ttt.utf-8.txt > > > > > > ttt.utf-8.txt: ASCII text > > > > > > owner at localhost:~> > > > > > > > > > > > > so nothing really changed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Randall > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/25/25 13:24, Rich Shepard wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2025, American Citizen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> My locale command shows identical values to yours. They match > > > > exactly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Randall, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were I in the same situation I'd use iconv on each ASCII file. > > Read > > > > `man > > > > > > > iconv'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Example: To convert ASCII to UTF-8 in Linux, you can use the > > iconv > > > > > > > command. > > > > > > > The syntax is: iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file.txt -o > > > > output_file.txt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HTH, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From lorenl at north-winds.org Mon Dec 29 07:47:10 2025 From: lorenl at north-winds.org (Loren M. Lang) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2025 23:47:10 -0800 Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes In-Reply-To: <015f01dc7689$c11a36b0$434ea410$@portlandia-it.com> References: <96aa1028-c76b-4db2-affd-cf84a4b1e339@gmail.com> <1a3e01dc75d4$b63f23a0$22bd6ae0$@portlandia-it.com> <22c6b99a-2018-4e2a-b072-b2926f77c261@gmail.com> <015f01dc7689$c11a36b0$434ea410$@portlandia-it.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 09:04:53AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Not really surprising. > > Copying and pasting into vim is a no-go because the distributors of vim decided when they coded up a rip-off of the actual 'vi' command to add > In UTF-8 support - even though the entire command-line terminal environment that vim is used in - is really an ASCII environment NOT a UTF-8 environment. Copying and pasting with full Unicode support works just fine in Vim when things are configured correctly. I rely on this daily and don't usually have to think about it anymore. The problem is that many programs like Vim default to very legacy settings for compatibility if not configured otherwise. Some distributions like Fedora will often do a lot more to configure and modernize the environment whereas other distributions like Arch and Slackware expect the end-user to configure everything themselves. I don't rely on my distribution to configure anything and I have all my core home directory rc files in a Git repository that I clone to every new system I work on. It has all the customizations in .bashrc, .vimrc, .muttrc, etc. to ensure everything is properly enabled and my history goes back 20 years now when I first took the effort to make sure everything is enabled for UTF-8 by default even if I am stuck on a system configured for the C locale or other legacy encoding. > > It's important to understand that vim IS NOT vi. This is a common misperception by newcomers to vi (which, in my personal option, is the greatest > Text editor ever invented) I am just young enough to have been introduced to Vim and my only Vi editor was Vim when I started it in Vi-compatible mode in the early days. Well, apart from a short stent playing on Solaris 2.6... > I had intended you copy and paste into the GUI text editor that comes with Linux since you were copying and pasting from a web page - I had not assumed you were running the command-line version of a web browser :-) As you discovered notepadqq also supports the UTF-8 stuff but it at least understands when it writes out a textfile that "text" means ascii. In my terminal environment, I am primarily working in UTF-8 and not ASCII. This requires two main things from the terminal, one is that I have the appropriate environment variables set which means I have this in my .bashrc which is also sourced into my .bash_profile: export LANG=en_US.UTF-8 And it means that my terminal, whether Gnome Terminal, Konsole, or PuTTY, is configured for the character encoding of UTF-8. If I selected a UTF-8 locale when installing Debian then both of these items are normally already completed. With that, I just have to make sure that Vim is configured in non-compatible mode and has the following lines: set fileencodings=ucs-bom,utf-8,default,cp1252 set encoding=utf-8 set fileformats=unix,dos The first line means that if it detects a text file with the UTF-16 BOM character leading the file (a common occurrence with files saved from Windows Notepad), it will auto-concert to/from UTF-8 on load/save. If not, it will try to load it as UTF-8, but if that fails, it will try latin1 followed by Windows-1252, another legacy encoding saved by Windows Notepad when saving as "ANSI" but with certain accented characters that are from the Windows-1252 encoding. This allows me to load a lot of files without ever thinking much about the encoding and it just works. While working in the editor, it is UTF-8 and since my terminal is in UTF-8, it all display correctly. It also converts back on save. Oh, and the last line just lets it detect UNIX or MS-DOS (Windows) line-endings which is auto-converts back and forth on load/save. As for copy and paste, as long as the terminal and Vim are in UTF-8, then copy/paste should work as well. This is true of both using the terminal's built-in copy/paste and with the X11 clipboard access. If you are running a version of Vim compiled with X11 support in a terminal and your $DISPLAY variable is set appropriately, then Vim can access the X11 clipboard by copying/pasting from "+. It will work with full Unicode support as long as your X11 environment is properly configured for UTF-8. As a test, I put together a little webpage writing it in Vim inside a terminal over a remote SSH connection to a server and using X11 forwarding with SSH to paste from the clipboard in the X11 session of my laptop. I found a wide variety of Unicode characters and emoji and that pasted just fine into Vim and also display correctly inside the terminal session. I then save the HTML webpage and made sure that it properly declared itself as UTF-8 in the HTML headers to the browser and the page rendered in Firefox as expected. As a further test, I also opened that same webpage in all of the 4 classic text-mode browsers on Debian with mostly success. The elinks and lynx browsers rendered nearly everything except for the Emojis using a special joiner control character that combines two emojis into one symbol, but nearly everything else worked right down to the colorized Emoji font that I have installed and is accessible to my terminal. links and links2 had more trouble and did not render most of the more exotic characters, but still rendered the simple arrow symbols and accented characters. This is just a limitation in their specific Unicode support they have built-in. If you want to take a look yourself, here's my test page: http://www.north-winds.org/emoji.html > > There's an interesting discussion of the conversion problems here with some suggestions you could use at the command line: > > https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/171832/converting-a-utf-8-file-to-ascii-best-effort There are some interesting suggestions on this if you really have to deal with an environment that can't handle non-ASCII > > One commentor recommended this program: > > https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/jammy/man1/konwert.1.html > > I know that this is going to sound terribly privileged and nationalistic but the fact is that the UNIX operating system was invented in the United States not in any other country, and the simple reality is that every other country has had the same access to electronics knowledge and scientific information since the invention of the vacuum tube - but every other government and culture on the fact of the Earth pretty much didn't value any of that "tech stuff" until AFTER us Americans invented it. And NOW, they all want a piece of the action. Well OK maybe if they all had valued open information, the free exchange of ideas, scientific advancement, much more than they valued dictatorial socio-religious crap used to tell people what to do and how to live and who to screw, then MAYBE they would have gotten to the digital age FIRST and then maybe us Americans would have to learn Chinese if we wanted to write software. (there's a reason the Americans using stone knives and bearskins made it to the moon and back and the Chinese today even though they manufacture tech that would knock 1969 NASA tech into a cocked hat - still haven't made it there) Get me drift, here? Indeed, I will agree that the entire attempt to add in multi-byte encodings into POSIX has been a big hack, but it's a hack that's now over 30 years old and pretty well understood at this point. My favorite example is the first double-byte encodings like EUC-JP. They have a mix of single and double-byte characters which can be properly understood when reading left-to-right. Now, one of the tricks was that all double-byte characters are also displayed in a double-wide font. This both helps with many terminal characters that use strlen() to count the length of a string to determine how much screen real estate it will take up and also allows for the more complex rendering needed for those Japanese characters. It indeed very much feels like a hack, but that is now life. > > UTF-8 was tacked on to UNIX as a way of accommodating the rest of the world who frankly couldn't give a tinker's damn about the digital age - until we Americans started kicking their butts with it. So it's NEVER going to be completely fully integrated into the Linux experience the way ASCII is. If, you, Randall, are stuck having to deal with that interface of American computing to rest of the world computing - your going to always have to deal with this fundamental mismatch. UTF-8 is even trickier because it can be anywhere from 1-4 bytes in length even if it only takes up one character cell on the screen so it's now imperative to use functions like wcswidth to find the needed screen real estate instead of counting bytes like strlen() does, but any efforts beyond the legacy 8-bit character sets will require extra effort to implement. UTF-8 is actually quite clean in several ways for being such a large character set. For one, it's much easier to go backwards such as when implementing backspace support. A character with a leading 0-bit will be a valid single-byte US-ASCII character in the range 0x00 to 0x7f. A character with two leading high bits, in other words, 0xc0 to 0xff, will be the first byte in a multi-byte character. In fact, the precise range of it will tell you immediately if this is a 2, 3, or 4 byte sequence so you can skip forward if needed. All later bytes in such a sequence will have a leading 1 and 0, or 0x80 to 0xbf in hex. To backspace, if the right-most byte is in the 0x80 to 0xbf, then keep deleting bytes until you find the 0xc0 to 0xff byte and remove that as the final byte in the backspace. Many other legacy multi-byte encodings have more complicated rules. > > What I find most interesting in all of this is that the tech types in the REST of the world fully accept this - THEY are NOT in general the ones complaining about the second-class citizen status of UTF-8. They know that they came second, they know they came in second because the majority of people in their culture don't value freedom of choice, and all that other stuff needed for scientific advancement, and they accept that their native languages play second fiddle to ASCII. They type "rm" and "ls" and all the other ASCII commands in UNIX/Linux without complaint, and they generally don't have a problem spending time on this conversion stuff...it's us Americans who are mostly bitching and complaining about it...not realizing that we won the digital war, here.... (hell, even Linus Torvalds gave up his Finnish citizenship and became a US citizen, that really ought to tell you something) > > Ted > > > -----Original Message----- > From: PLUG On Behalf Of American Citizen > Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2025 1:33 PM > To: plug at lists.pdxlinux.org > Subject: Re: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes > > Ted: > > I am using vim, but when I attempt to write the UTF-8 file which I saved from the internet browser cut and paste command, into ascii format, vim fails with a curious error > > vim command: > > :write ++enc=ASCII my_ascii_file.txt > > I get the following error: > > "my_ascii_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' > empty to override) > WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! > Press ENTER or type command to continue > > And trying to internally set the values of encoding and file encoding seems to work > > :set encoding=ascii > > :set fileencoding=ascii > > except when you double check the encoding, it stays at utf-8 > > but the fileencoding appears to be changed to the new value=ascii > > But then when you attempt to overwrite the file or write to a new file, vim throws errors again > > "new_file.txt" E513: Write error, conversion failed (make 'fenc' empty to override) > WARNING: Original file may be lost or damaged don't quit the editor until the file is successfully written! > Press ENTER or type command to continue > > So I am unable to get linux vim version 9.1.83 to work to change the encoding. > > I had to actually use notepadqq to paste the browser text and then set the encoding to ascii and this seems to work. > > I suppose you could pipe the file and let tr strip off the non-ascii characters ??? But this means going back in and manually comparing the two files, to see how to fix the omitted characters (if possible) > > TexStudio crashed mysteriously when I turned off its internal file scanning so I had to set the option again. > > Supposedly there is some tex sty code which allows UTF-8 to be used in a tex file. And yes, my editor settings under TexStudio IS UTF-8 > > I already have used up at least an hour of time on this problem as iconv doesn't really change a pure ascii file into a UTF-8 file and vim was failing me. > > Randall > > On 12/25/25 11:28, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Open the regular textedit, paste into there, save, open the saved file > > in TexStudio > > > > Ted > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PLUG On Behalf Of American > > Citizen > > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2025 7:40 PM > > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > > Subject: [PLUG] Ascii versus UTF-8 woes > > > > Hi: > > > > I have a set of tex files which are in pure ascii format. Unfortunately when I copy material from the internet (Mozilla Firefox browser) it is in UTF-8 format, not ascii. This appears to be standard behavior for the internet browsers. > > > > When I paste the material into the tex document (using TexStudio) the > > paste goes okay. It only blows up when I try to save the newer file. > > The > > UTF-8 characters cannot be saved in ascii format and for some bizarre reason Tex Studio wont' change the encoding to UTF-8 even though I have the option set that the editor is working with UTF-8 character set. > > > > iconv won't work either, I do the "iconv -f ASCII -t UTF-8 input_file -o output_file and the file remains ascii. > > > > Does anyone have an idea of how I can get TexStudio to wake up and change the file encoding on the current ascii file to UTF-8? > > > > I cannot get iconv to change the ascii file to UTF-8, so I am stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. > > > > Randall > > > > > > > -- Loren M. Lang lorenl at north-winds.org http://www.north-winds.org/ IRC: penguin359 Public Key: http://www.north-winds.org/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: 7896 E099 9FC7 9F6C E0ED E103 222D F356 A57A 98FA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 228 bytes Desc: not available URL: